51 replies to this topic

[techieboy]

Yeah, I've been keeping an eye on his thread over on z22se. Hope he get's it over here soon!

Not sure it's ever going to happen over here, with the rate that people are going SC. Might be worth a trip to the Netherlands and bagging a day at Zandvoort to really get the self learning sorted.

[G-Bob]

The custom remapped 2,4's seem to run pretty well here, but sofar I've not seen dyno results from this remap. (Preferably standard vs 2,4 vs remapped 2,4 on the same dyno.)

My aim is to dyno before and after the dutch remap. (to finally get some clarity)

@ the rest, here's the throttle body response fix the same guy that built the remap made:


It's now included in the remap 2.0

I've seen that video before. Should make it rev like a bike!
Should get him over here to the national and get a group buy going. Could do loads of people at once.

[smiley]

Should get him over here to the national and get a group buy going. Could do loads of people at once.

His procedure is take an hour to learn the car, with his laptop hooked in the odb.
Then he does his voodoo, makes a backup of the existing, and then enters the custom remap.
Then every hardware change you make afterwards is good for a re-remap at a small fee.
Not exatly something for mass production on a single day.

But then again, cheap ferry trip and just enjoy a weekend here while you're at it.

Edited by smiley, 22 January 2010 - 03:37 PM.

[techieboy]

Smiley, do you know if anyone is running one of his customised ECU's with a supercharger conversion? Would be interesting to know if there is any benefit to be had there.

[markv]

Should get him over here to the national and get a group buy going. Could do loads of people at once.

His procedure is take an hour to learn the car, with his laptop hooked in the odb.
Then he does his voodoo, makes a backup of the existing, and then enters the custom remap.
Then every hardware change you make afterwards is good for a re-remap at a small fee.
Not exatly something for mass production on a single day.

But then again, cheap ferry trip and just enjoy a weekend here while you're at it.

Ehm, just to correct a few points here. At the moment of writing the procedure for the ECU learning does not involve a laptop for logging while driving..
The ECU has been modified to do internal logging. When entered into this mode, you get the MIL light on. This means that for the current cell
you are in, there are not enough samples available. The point is now to drive around and try to hit every point in to map enough times. When
you have enough samples for a certain cell, the MIL light will go off. So just drive around untill you don't get the MIL light on
Afterwards, the logged data is downloaded from the ECU and integrated into the base map. At this point you have an ECU which has a very
good base map for running closed loop

Next is to do a few power runs. The ECU has been modified with an extra logging mode. Based on basic physics (acceleration of a know mass)
it is possible to create reproducable power graphs for the car. After doing a couple of runs and checking the graph, the AFR is adjusted. In all
cases up till now an AFR of 12.9 produces maximum power (standard is 12.6). After confirming max power (also doing a 13.2 etc run), final values
are flashed to the ECU's permanent memory (this can be done with the engine running, Peter has modified the code so you can flash internally).

At the moment a remap for a supercharger isn't availabe. But as Peter's own plans are to supercharge his car, I'm sure he's going to get it done

With the ECU's power graphs, we've consistently seen about 210bhp for cars that have a 2.4 intake and a full tulet exhaust system. My car comes in at
about 195bhp with 2.4 intake and 2bular exhaust with the original exhaust manifold. Initially Peter got about 175bhp with a standard engine and a 2.4 inlet manifold.

I don't know about Peter's plans on making this available abroad, maybe in future..

Mark

[techieboy]

At the moment a remap for a supercharger isn't availabe. But as Peter's own plans are to supercharge his car, I'm sure he's going to get it done

I'll be watching with interest, for sure.

[Mike (Cliffie)]

I will have a 2.4 manifold, polished throttle body and Carbon ITG Maxogen set up for the 2.2 for sale very soon.

[G-Bob]

My car comes in at about 195bhp with 2.4 intake and 2bular exhaust with the original exhaust manifold.

Now THAT'S what I'm talking about!!!!!

So with an induction kit, 2.4 inlet, P&P TB, pre-cat removed and custom exhaust I would expect about the same?
That's about an extra 25-30bhp on what the tuners over here are getting is it not?

[vocky]

With the ECU's power graphs, we've consistently seen about 210bhp for cars that have a 2.4 intake and a full tulet exhaust system.

similar to what mine had with the 2.4 inlet manifold and a TMS 2.4 remap

the TMS stage 1 map doesn't seem to like the 2.4 inlet manifold, probably because it was not intended for a 2.4 inlet manifold

but the TMS 2.4 remap does work very well

[alanoo]

With the ECU's power graphs, we've consistently seen about 210bhp for cars that have a 2.4 intake and a full tulet exhaust system. My car comes in at
about 195bhp with 2.4 intake and 2bular exhaust with the original exhaust manifold. Initially Peter got about 175bhp with a standard engine and a 2.4 inlet manifold.

I don't know about Peter's plans on making this available abroad, maybe in future..

Mark

Mark,

Just two specific questions :
- How can you adjust the AFR that precisely without a wideband lambda ? (or maybe you fit one during the process and you just forget saying it ?)
- As any of those cars done a real dyno session or is it only the DL-1 / datalog power prediction/calculation ?

and I'll add a third one : does the throttle map change is a PID map change, or it uses the OE PID algorithm ? Otherwise did you had to do a whole new PID ?

[Kieran B]

P.S post some vids of the Tullett if you can.. im looking to get the full system too..

cheers!

I have posted some videos of my car on track before and after fitting a compete Chris Tullet exhaust in this thread

Post 1 is standard car

Posts 19 and 22 is with exhaust (including manifold) and Hofmann's spec Nitrons

sounds nice

[Kieran B]

With the ECU's power graphs, we've consistently seen about 210bhp for cars that have a 2.4 intake and a full tulet exhaust system.

similar to what mine had with the 2.4 inlet manifold and a TMS 2.4 remap

the TMS stage 1 map doesn't seem to like the 2.4 inlet manifold, probably because it was not intended for a 2.4 inlet manifold

but the TMS 2.4 remap does work very well

So for arguments sake, if I were to put a full tullett ( manifold, 100 cell d/pipe, bk box) plus a 2.4 inlet manifold.. Finished with a TMS map.. The BHP would be close 200BHP?

[techieboy]

Doubt it. More like 175+/-.

[Mike (Cliffie)]

With the ECU's power graphs, we've consistently seen about 210bhp for cars that have a 2.4 intake and a full tulet exhaust system.

similar to what mine had with the 2.4 inlet manifold and a TMS 2.4 remap

the TMS stage 1 map doesn't seem to like the 2.4 inlet manifold, probably because it was not intended for a 2.4 inlet manifold

but the TMS 2.4 remap does work very well

So for arguments sake, if I were to put a full tullett ( manifold, 100 cell d/pipe, bk box) plus a 2.4 inlet manifold.. Finished with a TMS map.. The BHP would be close 200BHP?

Let me know if this is the route you want to go as I have pretty much all the stuff you will need apart from the exhaust of course.

[Kieran B]

With the ECU's power graphs, we've consistently seen about 210bhp for cars that have a 2.4 intake and a full tulet exhaust system.

similar to what mine had with the 2.4 inlet manifold and a TMS 2.4 remap

the TMS stage 1 map doesn't seem to like the 2.4 inlet manifold, probably because it was not intended for a 2.4 inlet manifold

but the TMS 2.4 remap does work very well

So for arguments sake, if I were to put a full tullett ( manifold, 100 cell d/pipe, bk box) plus a 2.4 inlet manifold.. Finished with a TMS map.. The BHP would be close 200BHP?

Let me know if this is the route you want to go as I have pretty much all the stuff you will need apart from the exhaust of course.

nooo.. think im going down down the S/C route thanks to u guys at the last meet..

[TheHood]

I can't see how our Dutch friends are seeing such high power figures due to an optimized calibration. IRC Courtenays were able to adjust fuelling to within about 1.0AFR of "optimum" (as well as advance ignition) on my car and even if I've got a bad 'un is there really that much to be gained from the self learning ECU code? Here in the UK no car has come close to 200BHP without cams and headwork, as well as usually requiring an injector swap because the standard injectors had no more duty cycle spare - something that correlates fairly closely with the various injector size calculators I've tried and surely a physical limit the best ECU in the world can't do anything about? I'd love to have my scepticism quelled. The idea of a self tuning ECU is very appealing, but I won't be booking my ferry just yet....

[markv]

Mark,

Just two specific questions :
- How can you adjust the AFR that precisely without a wideband lambda ? (or maybe you fit one during the process and you just forget saying it ?)
- As any of those cars done a real dyno session or is it only the DL-1 / datalog power prediction/calculation ?

and I'll add a third one : does the throttle map change is a PID map change, or it uses the OE PID algorithm ? Otherwise did you had to do a whole new PID ?

The AFR I mentioned is the AFR the ECU uses, so it is a target AFR as the ECU can't measure anything else then below or above 14.7.

The target AFR is calculated by the ECU by exacly knowing about what the 14.7 AFR is. That is why the main map of the ECU is AFR 14.7. So when the ECU
knows the 14.7 AFR it can accuratly calculate the target AFR. BTW, this is where it goes wrong with engines which have (a lot) of modifcations without an updated
14.7 AFR main map. The ECU will try to correct any deviations from the main map with the long term fuel trims. The problem is that this long term fuel trim map
has much lower resolution then the main map. So it then is VERY possible the target AFR is all over the place. Usually with a 2.4 manifold the long term fuel trim map
has such big corrections that on higher rpm the engine is likely to not running richt enough.

We haven't had any cars on a dyno. But figures we get seem to be reasonable and compare pretty well between cars. For me the only usefull rolling road to run the
car on would be the one at Emerald, they seem to have loads of other cars on there and seem to get consistent results.

On the throttle map question, do you mean the OBD2 PID? BTW, it is not a "map" as such. The ECU features a throttlevalve delay. As you can see in the video,
the delay is pretty high. For the throttle it is now possible to adjust the delay. And as with all modifications, everything can be changed live with a running enigne..

Mark

[bazzio]

any updates on this subject???????

[smiley]

any updates on this subject???????

It's in sort of a standoff now i think.
The dutch remap has had about 10 cars done over here now.
Some of them have had markv's DL1 readout around 200, but no dyno has been done.
I am waiting for the 2.0 testing to complete at clastres, so i have the fast throttlerespons.
2.0 also includes stationairy fuel regulation, stationairy rev and starting the cooling fan at 98c.
1.0 is the remap, disabeling the egr and the rev up to 7.000 (blocks now at 7050 i think)

He's also working on the 68mm throttlebody, as he noticed a change in vacuum at 4000 rpm that could be fixed with the 68mm.

Looks like it's a "can't be done; show me the dynoplots" over here, versus "YIHAA" over in NL.

Last week i begged a ride with a mapped speedster, and bascily noticed a more linear pull towards 7000, where as my car with just the 2.4 and no remap, sort of hits a point at about 4250 where it notices the extra breathing, and can utilise it. The fun stops at 6000, where i need to shift. Doing that at 7.000 creates a lot of fun i can tell you.

Edited by smiley, 23 March 2010 - 06:16 PM.

[Paulus H]

Cliffe, I might be interested in the manifold and throttle body. You say polished throttle body, I am assuming this means it is just cleaned up not ported/increased in internal diameter (Vocky style). Does the manifold have the additional fitting kit? Please advise. I already have the ITG but I guess this would be easiest part for you to move. Beast regards, Paul