77 replies to this topic

[Dazzla]

Pretty long email chain below - but just wanted to share with everybody my experience with MSV / Palmersport and their subsequent responses to my complaint. Ive been taking part in track days for about 7 years now and this is in a league of its own for disappointment. All in all a terrible experience for me. From: Darren Butcher Sent: 25 May 2008 10:17 To: CorpSales; Trackdays; BATrackdays; Sales; Chris Dredge Subject: Complaint re 24 May Bedford Track Day - For the attention of Dr Palmer Dear Dr Palmer I am addressing this mail to you in the hope that I can appeal to someone in your organisation with an enthusiasm for and understanding of motor sport, qualities that were sadly lacking in the MSV employees I had the misfortune to deal with at the Bedford Autodrome track day yesterday. I have been attending track days on a regular basis for about 5 years and over that time have used a range of cars at events organised by a host of companies at tracks up and down the country, including two events at Bedford Autodrome organised by Easytrack. I cannot think of a single occasion prior to yesterday that has been anything less than a thoroughly enjoyable day out – but of course prior to yesterday I had never used Motor Sport Vision. I used MSV for the first time despite it being the most expensive track day I had yet attended (for comparison please see the circuit-days website which offers open pit lane days for approximately £200 inclusive of passengers and a second driver) as I felt confident that a company run by an ex-F1 driver would offer a high-quality experience. How wrong I was. To indicate how quickly my experience on the day began to deteriorate I intended to write this letter of complaint from about 7:45 in the morning when we were advised that my Mum and Dad would have to pay £25 each simply to sit in the pit lane and spectate. This brought the total cost of the day to an eye watering £335 (I had already paid for 1 passenger and a second driver). Never before have we been forced to pay for non-participants. Indeed in most pit lanes there has been a really inclusive atmosphere with drivers bringing along friends and family to share in the excitement of a track day. Clearly conviviality is not encouraged by MSV. My second point of frustration was the delay to the drivers briefing. I had left my Surrey home at 5:30 in the morning to ensure that I would be at the track in good time to prepare my car, sign on and be in the drivers briefing at 8:30 sharp. However, 8:30 came and went and the briefing only got underway about 10 minutes late after we had spoken to one of your staff (I’m afraid I didn’t get any names, but it was the guy who actually gave the briefing) to ask what was going on. I agree that a delay of 10 mins may seem trivial (although as per the below it seems flexibility in other areas is not tolerated by MSV), however, I see this as a general indication of the disregard for your customers. I had paid (a lot) of good money to participate in this track day. Why should my track time then be wasted due to the poor organisational skills of your staff? I would recommend you attend a bookatrack day for an excellent example of a company who does reward those customers who can be bothered to turn up on time – at these events the doors on the briefing are closed at exactly the allotted time and any late comers must wait for a second briefing later in the morning. Following the late start to the briefing I was rather surprised at the brevity of it. I don’t know if this was an attempt to claw back the wasted 10 minutes, but at every previous event I have attended the briefing is incredibly detailed. I felt that important safety aspects such as the usual track day emphasis on over taking by consent were not even touched upon. This particularly surprised me given the relatively large number of people who admitted to little prior track day experience. Potentially more worrying still was that the doors to the briefing room were not closed and hence people wandered in half way though – these people still received their wrist bands at the end of the briefing as indeed did at least one person who was standing in the signing on queue and so must have been in the room next door whilst the briefing was taking place. I don’t know the ins and outs of your insurance arrangements for track days – but I would have thought that not delivering an adequate safety briefing to all participants leaves you on rather shaky legal ground. Finally we got to what I had hoped would be the main event – the driving – and an opportunity to put the frustrations outlined above behind me. However, it was at this time that my MSV experience turned from annoying, to appalling and then later to farce. We will start with annoying. I had specifically signed up for an open pit lane day on the basis that I would have freedom to enter any leave the pits as I wished. However, due to your over selling of spaces on the track I was not able a single time (albeit out of the measly 3 opportunities I had) to exit the pit lane without queuing for 10 minutes. If I had wanted to sit in queues and then stay out on track for as long as possible knowing that I would have to wait ages for my next track time I would have attended a sessioned day. Now to appalling. By about 10:15 I had successfully completed my first good session of about 30 mins and had returned to the pits to allow the car to cool down. I was with the car in the pits for the next 20 minutes or so making minor adjustments to suspension settings and tyre pressures but at no point was I approached by any of your marshals to advise that I was in danger of breaching noise limits. Again, I have previous experience of noise problems (not in the VX I was running yesterday I hasten to add, but in a considerably noisier race prepped Astra that we own) and in those circumstances I have always found track day marshals to be nothing but helpful in advising when we were getting into dangerous territory thus giving us an opportunity to modify our driving styles, fit baffles, etc and then to continue to enjoy our day. I can assume that this lack of contact by marshals meant one of two things. One – that my car wasn’t noisy. Two – that at MSV you are simply waiting for your customers to breach your noise limits so that you can apply your draconian “one strike and you are out” rule (which I may or may not have signed up to – see quote from your website below) and thus quickly get rid of some cars and lessen the pit lane queuing problems caused by your over selling of spaces. Anyway – 4 or 5 laps into my second session I received the black flag and returned immediately to the pits. Your marshal there informed me that we had measured 87.6 dB at one of the sound detectors and had thus breached the limit of 87.5 dB and would have to leave the circuit. This treatment is contrary to that detailed in the terms and conditions section of your website which advises that an opportunity to modify the car to meet noise limits will indeed be given. I include the relevant quote below: “If the results of the monitoring show that a particular vehicle is exceeding the drive-by limit of 87.5dB(A), then MSV staff will inform the participant and their vehicle will not be permitted to take further part in the event until the participant has addressed the noise levels generated by the vehicle to bring them within acceptable limits. Further participation in the track day may be precluded if acceptable drive-by limits cannot be achieved at the first drive-by test following the addition of extra silencing.” Unfortunately I was not armed with the above whilst at the circuit and therefore tried to explain to the marshal that I had been running my VX for about 18 months and have attended approaching 10 track days in it without so much as a warning for noise, that I had already run a 30 min session without anybody from MSV suggesting to me that the car was in any danger of breaching noise restrictions and that therefore I was shocked at being told to leave the circuit. I suggested that given that it was a blustery day on an airfield, with 39 other cars on the track and that my noise breach was an immeasurable 0.1dB that there must be some flexibility around the decision. However, I was informed in no uncertain terms that they were 100% confident and that no discussion would be entered into. As you and I both know there is no such thing as 100% accuracy – if there was F1 cars would never break down!! Indeed a little research on the net this morning leads me to believe that in conditions such as those yesterday (i.e. 20 meters away in a field in a gale) measuring to 0.5dB is a good level of accuracy. So even allowing for you running state of the art equipment I find it doubtful that your marshals can be 100% confident that my car breached the limits. I mention all this to try and give you some sense of the frustration I felt at that point. Whilst I fully understand the need for noise limits on track days, and appreciate that these are not necessarily the “fault” of the organisers, but enforced by the local council I was surprised by the intransigence of the marshal given such a marginal breach. Indeed I was made to feel more like a criminal than a valued customer who had paid a whopping £335 for what turned out to be approximately 40 mins of track time. It is at this point that the only event of the day for which I fully accept blame and apologise for unreservedly occurred. My father, again out of a frustration that I hope I have managed to convey to you, continued to plead our case with a female marshal during which conversation he used an expletive. As it happens that conversation ended amicably with the marshal agreeing that our treatment seemed harsh and suggesting that we speak to someone in the reception building to see if there was any leeway. We were subsequently informed however that she had taken great offence to Dad’s language – and again, if that is the case I am deeply sorry. I fully appreciate that there are no excuses for swearing at your staff. Now we move on to the farce element of the day. We were informed about the offence taken by the female steward by what I can only describe as the most officious person I have ever met (please bear in mind that I am an accountant and you will appreciate that I have a lot of experience with incredibly petty characters!!). Again – unfortunately I got no names, but this was a rotund, bald gentleman if that helps with identification. He advised me that as a result of my father using the f-word we were trespassing on MSV property and that we had to leave immediately. Furthermore he said that our names and number plate would be black listed from any future MSV events. Now – I’m sure that MSV operates to the highest moral standards, but I couldn’t help but think that this was something of an over reaction. My mother, who at this point had not said a word to anyone, tried to explain the situation and was advised that she was being abusive, was trespassing and that she would be escorted from the site should she continue. My Mum is almost 60 years old and frankly I doubt whether anyone in all that time has ever found her abusive before – indeed I would invite you to visit her house for a cup of tea and make an assessment for yourself. Aside from all the frustration I feel about being kicked off the circuit in such circumstances it is the way the officious man spoke to my Mum that has caused me such resentment to your organisation. I hope that in reading this account of my first and only MSV track day (even if the officious guy’s ban was just an empty threat I cannot imagine a circumstance in which I would chose to use your services again) I have been able to paint a picture of the “MSV experience” from the perspective of one of your paying customers, noting that this 2,150 word account of poor management and frustration stems from not much more than 3 hours in your stewardship. I would urge you to read this account trying to place yourself in my shoes as a motor sport enthusiast who invested a great deal of time and money to try and have a nice day out with my family enjoying my hobby. Kind regards Darren Butcher To Darren Butcher cc "Giles Butterfield" <Giles.Butterfield@bedford-autodrome.com> Subject Re: Complaint re 24 May Bedford Track Day - For the attention of Dr Palmer Dear Darren Thank you for your email and sorry for the delay in my response, as I am sure you are aware I have been speaking to all of those involved. I have passed your email to Jonathan along with the responses from MotorSport Vision staff. Due to the noise limits imposed on Bedford Autodrome by the Council each infringement which triggers the noise meter has to be accounted for and an explanation provided to the Council. Jonathan completely understands your frustrations and that you may not wish to return to a track day run by MotorSport Vision. Kind regards Amy Amy Whitehouse PA to Jonathan Palmer, Chief Executive MotorSport Vision and PalmerSport The Old Post Office, Worthing Road, Southwater, West Sussex, RH13 9EZ T: 01403 733999 F: 01403 734444 From: Darren Butcher Sent: 22 January 2010 12:04 To: Sales Subject: Fw: Complaint re 24 May Bedford Track Day - For the attention of Dr Palmer Dear Sir I have just received a brochure from your company regarding what you describe as the "Worlds Best Corporate Motorsport Event" and it reminded me of my one and only experience with you, detailed below, and your completely dismissive response to my complaint. Based on my experience I would be staggered if you could indeed organise the "Worlds Best" anything - I would suggest you try and improve to "Really Appalling" and work your way up from there. I appreciate it is quite a while ago now, but having continued to enjoy track days with "any company that isnt associated with Jonathan Palmer" since this horrendous experience I am still surprisingly angry with your organisation and would still like some compensation for the 350 odd quid you stole from me when breaching your own terms and conditions. I know it is a long shot - but I just thought I would resend you my original mail and give you a second opportunity to rehabilitate your company in my eyes. Thanks Darren From: Rachel Middleton Sent: 22 January 2010 12:48 To: Jonathan Palmer Subject: FW: Complaint re 24 May Bedford Track Day - For the attention of Dr Palmer Please see below. Rachel To Darren Butcher Subject PalmerSport brochure Dear Darren I am quite sure you have no desire to deal with any company that you think has to improve to even become “really appalling”, so I will assume you will continue to take your business elsewhere. Fortunately for us I think you are in a minority of one. Regards Jonathan Palmer Chief Executive MotorSport Vision Ltd T 01403 733999 F 01403 734444 www.motorsportvision.co.uk From: Darren Butcher Sent: 22 January 2010 13:23 To: Jonathan Palmer Subject: Re: PalmerSport brochure Jonathan Many thanks for your quick response. It would appear your organisation has improved in that regard at least. I must admit - I would have thought that any company with confidence in its ability to deliver a high quality customer experience would make some attempt to change the mind of a disgruntled customer, however, it is clear that you do not back yourself in that regard. I would, however, still be interested in your views on your company's breach of its own terms and conditions when failing to provide me with an opportunity to "address the noise levels generated by the vehicle to bring them within acceptable limits" and for you to comment on whether you feel that a refund of the money I wasted in participating on one of your "World class" track days is appropriate in such a situation even though you realise that any action that may result in me using you for future events is beyond your capabilities. Kind regards Darren To Darren Butcher Subject Complaints Darren You will probably choose to reject it, but I will offer you some advice. If you have a problem about a service, you will get a lot further if you are not unpleasant, rude, exaggerating, unreasonable and lengthy in your complaint. All things you have been, frankly. We are never perfect, but the undeniable success of our business is because we do a pretty good job overall. And that also means I can choose the customers I want to have and those I do not. I know you were frustrated and as I said before, I could understand it. Had you handled the situation both at Bedford Autodrome - and subsequently - differently you might have got further. Regards Jonathan Palmer Chief Executive MotorSport Vision Ltd T 01403 733999 F 01403 734444 www.motorsportvision.co.uk To Jonathan Palmer Jonathan.Palmer@palmersport.com Subject Re: Complaints Jonathan Many thanks for your advice, Im not sure why you think I would chose to reject it, but I certainly will not. I too am fully aware that I am not perfect but does not stop me from trying to improve. Whilst my complaint may have been lengthy this was simply an effort for me to fully cover all of the issues with which I was not satisfied. To the extent there were a large number of them I would see that as a simple reflection of the number of areas in which your company failed to deliver a high quality experience for me. I would point out that I am not an inveterate complainer, and indeed this is the one and only example of an email of this nature I have ever sent. Which again I think reflects the relative experience I had at Bedford as opposed to any other track day I have attended. I do fully reject that my complaint was exaggerated or unreasonable. I agree that the way we were treated by your company is difficult to believe, but the email below was my honest attempt to provide you with as accurate a description of events as I could recall. And it was certainly not my intention to be unpleasant or rude - if it was taken in that way then I apologise. As I stated in my original mail - the only occasion in which I believe any of my party were rude was the use of an expletive by my father towards one of your staff, and as I stated originally I fully accept that this was unacceptable and for which I provided an apology. But I do feel that whether or not the manner of my complaint meets your personal approval I think is somewhat missing the point. I spent a great deal of money and chose to use your company to have a day out with my family indulging my passion for motor sport. I am sure that you will accept that when we set out on that day 18 months ago we did not turn up at your track looking for a fight, we were there to have a good time. However, as a result of your staff's very poor handling of events we ended up having a very expensive and miserable day. And the fact that neither at the time of my original complaint nor during this subsequent email discourse have I received anything even close to an apology nor any form of compensation I find unacceptable. Not least as you breached your own terms and conditions, as I have stated a number of times. I appreciate that your success means that you can chose your customers and can fully understand if you do not wish to have my repeat custom. I think we can both agree that the feeling is mutual there. However, from the simple level of good will and decency I think that your handling of my complaint could have been hugely improved and would have expected that you would look to address that given that the company bears your name. Kind regards Darren From: Darren Butcher To: Jonathan Palmer Sent: Thu Jan 28 09:48:37 2010 Subject: Re: Complaints Hi Jonathan I note with interest that having seen fit to lecture me on etiquette last week you have singularly lacked the manners to address the specific point of my complaint, i.e. that you owe me a refund of the £325 you stole from me when breaching the terms and conditions of the track day that I signed up to. I can see that it must be almost impossible for you to explain why you did not conduct the track day in accordance with the terms and conditions you set out yourselves and I guess this is why you have bottled out of giving me any satisfactory response to my 18 month old complaint. I would be etternally grateful, however, if you could find it within your heart to either explain to me why you feel comfortable holding on to my money despite your breach of contract or else return the funds to me. Many thanks Darren To Darren Butcher Subject Re: Complaints Sorry I'm not prepared to have any further correspondence on this matter. JP

[hogman]

Sadly there are more and more companies out there who really dont have a clue about customer service. I feel for you but try Trading Standards, tbh I dont think you will get anywhere with them which is a shame. Good luck

[SteveA]

Never used MSV before, this certainly puts me off though. Out of interest what Exhaust, filter combo are you using (just to get an idea of permitted noise levels)

[Duncan VXR]

Well I am another regular tracker over the years and never used them but heard a few similar stories, most people just accept poor customer service as we are made to feel we are the ones in the wrong and then they get upset if we ask a direct question. As they still see the events booking up they see no real reason to address the issues in their business. Shocking springs to mind with this one and hope you get somewhere with it. If not all the regular forums would like to hear the view I am sure. Fair to say I would not get a lap in at Bedford LOL - DG

[VIX]

This happened in 2008?

[The Batman]

This happened in 2008?

i have noticed they do take a while to email back....

[Joss]

why not sue for breach of contract?

[markiii]

to be fair you may be as honest as the day is long but you gave him no eveidence to support your treatment not even the names of people to speak to whats to stop everyone chancing their arm for a refund, if they accept a claim with no evidence?

[Molinites]

Never used MSV before, this certainly puts me off though. Out of interest what Exhaust, filter combo are you using (just to get an idea of permitted noise levels)

Puts me off too ! Thanks for the warning.

[techieboy]

Having done plenty of MSV trackdays over the years, I've got to say I've never found them anything other than helpful. Bedford is hard work, noise wise, and the "one strike and you're out" policy has been widely publicised for the last couple of years - maybe you were just on the cusp of them being forced, by Bedford Council, to implement that policy. I ventured back there last summer to try my luck with the noise regs (half expecting to be kicked off) and the head marshall called me in to warn me I was right on the limit and gave me some advice to help see me through the remainder of the day. I was even given an impromptu tour of the F2 facilities and a peek at some new active aero changes for this year, when I popped up their for a noise test. There's no denying they do book a lot of cars on Bedford OPL days though. That's why, historically, I've tended to do them via LoT or some other TDO where numbers are often a bit lower. Lotus-on-Track even advise you that spectators aren't allowed as there is no real facilities for them, so surprised me that MSV would encourage you to bring non-drivers/passengers with you. I would have to agree with JP that their corporate days at Bedford are the best available in the UK. Absolutely brilliant fun and with a great variety of cars, where you are really encouraged to push them to the limits.

[Sutol]

I've been to MSV days and I've made complaints to them about certain aspects on how the days are run. However tbh if I had an email like that I would tend to do what JP did and batten down the hatches. There are ways and means to getting an amicable solution to things and the general vibe from those emails gave a good example as to how not to do it. I'm not denying that I full heartedly believe you have a case but you raised their hackles and they didn't like it. I wonder if a phone call should have been the first means of contact on the subject.

[jonnyboy]

They obviously have a certain level of disregard for their customers as a lot of successful businesses do if they aren't careful. The biggest error was probably getting carried away with the staff on site. Infuriating as it must have been on the day they now have all the ammo they need to rebuff anything you throw at them. Also don't forget that if they indeed did bother to look properly into it the staff would have exaggerated how rude/aggressive etc you were to cover their own backs. I also think a short more to the point email might have got you further. Its food for thought though. TBH I would never use MSV, BAT or similar just on the principal they are a complete rip off. I know theres times when you want to do a certain track on a certain day but I'd rather just wait and use either LOT, track action online or javelin all of whom are superb. In the case of Javelin and TAOL the boss is on site on the day so any issues can be resolved. IMO you know a company is just in it for the money when they start charging for spectators and second drivers.

[goodeg]

I've also used MSV plenty of times over the years at Oulton & Cadwell for Novice days, normal days & drift days and have never had a problem. As has been said the one strike and your out policy has been well publicised and whilst you might have been close to their limit they need to draw the line somewhere and also protect their license. I think it is the risk you take if you have a 'louder' car. Especially if they allow you to go up for a noise test to see if you are borderline. I admit this is not practical for everyone, at least they are trying to mitigate against problems on their trackdays.

[Pidgeon]

That story only enhances Jonathon Palmer. All circuits have a problem with noise. MSV has been quite clear with the rules. Your letter was overly long. Palmer was brief and to the point. If your father swore at a member of staff he deserved to be ejected. MSV and MSVR are highly efficient organisations. JP has been incredibly successful and owns more circuits than anyone else, all on the back of the acclaimed Palmersports days. I have some sympathy when you were slightly over the noise limit, but anyone doing TD's in the modern age needs to learn to fit a compliant exhaust. The fact your car has been fine since the dawn of time is irrelevant. 'Customer Service' does not mean always giving in.

Edited by Partridge, 29 January 2010 - 06:02 PM.

[JohnTurbo]

Court summons is usually a good way to get people's attention.

https://www.moneycla...smco2/index.jsp

Even if you just want to ruin their week.

[jonnyboy]

You would have rights in fairness and a visit to the small claims court would probably go in your favour. Try to get them to admit in writing that they broke their own terms with the one strike thing you'll probably win.

[markiii]

don't think you will have a leg to stand on had you tried to get the problem fixed and come back they may have let you back on, you didn't. you could argue you didn't because they told you to leave, but then they will no doubt have a clause regarding abuse of their staff, giving them a getout

[Dazzla]

Never used MSV before, this certainly puts me off though. Out of interest what Exhaust, filter combo are you using (just to get an idea of permitted noise levels)

Standard filter and a Miltek Sport Exhaust.

[MrSimba]

That story only enhances Jonathon Palmer.

All circuits have a problem with noise. MSV has been quite clear with the rules.

Your letter was overly long. Palmer was brief and to the point.

If your father swore at a member of staff he deserved to be ejected.

MSV and MSVR are highly efficient organisations. JP has been incredibly successful and owns more circuits than anyone else, all on the back of the acclaimed Palmersports days.

I have some sympathy when you were slightly over the noise limit, but anyone doing TD's in the modern age needs to learn to fit a compliant exhaust. The fact your car has been fine since the dawn of time is irrelevant.

'Customer Service' does not mean always giving in.

[Mike (Cliffie)]

JP is a successful business man because he is a ruthless bugger and I know people who have worked for him. I sympathise with your situation but can't advise you to pursue this any further it being a track day from 2008. There are plenty of efficient and value for money TDO out there. Give them you money in the future.