57 replies to this topic

[Winstar]

My point still stands. You have not looked at the intake. The ITG intake is measurably better than stock.

I did not say airbox.

I was relly talking about the airbox vs cone filters but which part of the intake system, we're talking air in to throttle body, do you think is significatly better on an ITG than the std?

[Mangham54]

And you obviously have never seen the stock NA intake.

I have (plus analysed a few) with a few modifications the standard airbox will flow just as well as an ITG, viper, etc.

My point still stands. You have not looked at the intake. The ITG intake is measurably better than stock.

I did not say airbox.

Wasn't there a suggestion about using the Vectra C airbox to manifold pipe to replace the flattened pipe to a regular cylindrical one?

[theolodian]

I was relly talking about the airbox vs cone filters but which part of the intake system, we're talking air in to throttle body, do you think is significatly better on an ITG than the std?

That's my point. Look at the stock NA intake as a complete system. The ITG is an intake system, not just a cone filter, and it works.

[slindborg]

using a flattened pipe (cobra duct) is an effective way of getting air round a 90 deg bed while keeping it mostly laminar (spelling) rather than being turbulent and crap.... how important that is over the throttle plate I dont know but its best to try and avoid turbulent flow till you hit the engine itself

[Winstar]

That's my point. Look at the stock NA intake as a complete system. The ITG is an intake system, not just a cone filter, and it works.

Ok the only real advantage that the ITG has over the stdard system is that it has a wide radius bend that enters the throttle body rather than the Cobra head. This will give minimal extra flow over the std at high flow and WOT (due to the way the butterfly opens. You'll the same effect if you use a couple of samco bends and a piece of drain pipe.

As for it working who says? TMS are the only ones that have done std (unmodified) vs ITG, their graphs show an extra few bhp at the top end and a loss of torque lower down. Unless your running alot more power than the std air box can handle induction kit are just noise.

[TheRealVXed]

How significant a loss of torque? I am not looking to reduce my accelerative power anywhere in the range!

[RobNA]

That's my point. Look at the stock NA intake as a complete system. The ITG is an intake system, not just a cone filter, and it works.

Ok the only real advantage that the ITG has over the stdard system is that it has a wide radius bend that enters the throttle body rather than the Cobra head. This will give minimal extra flow over the std at high flow and WOT (due to the way the butterfly opens. You'll the same effect if you use a couple of samco bends and a piece of drain pipe.

As for it working who says? TMS are the only ones that have done std (unmodified) vs ITG, their graphs show an extra few bhp at the top end and a loss of torque lower down. Unless your running alot more power than the std air box can handle induction kit are just noise.

I would certainly take what Winstar has to say over what TMS have/had to say! Firstly Winstar is an engineer, and he has no bias to skew his fnidings/thoughts to the expensive option he is selling

[theolodian]

I would certainly take what Winstar has to say over what TMS have/had to say! Firstly Winstar is an engineer, and he has no bias to skew his fnidings/thoughts to the expensive option he is selling

I agree, but you can not tar everything that TMS sells with the same brush. I believe in ITG because I spoke with ITG. I have never talked to TMS and never plan to. Winstar was saying that the ITG is no good without looking at the complete product which I think is unfair.

[Winstar]

I would certainly take what Winstar has to say over what TMS have/had to say! Firstly Winstar is an engineer, and he has no bias to skew his fnidings/thoughts to the expensive option he is selling

I agree, but you can not tar everything that TMS sells with the same brush. I believe in ITG because I spoke with ITG. I have never talked to TMS and never plan to. Winstar was saying that the ITG is no good without looking at the complete product which I think is unfair.

I wasn't suggesting you do talk to TMS I was saying that if you compare their stg2 and stg2+ products the only diference is an ITG and both mapped to take advantage so a proper documented comparison of how the 2 compare on a VX220.

My point is that almost everyone who tells you somthing works is generally trying to sell you somthing. Yes the ITG has some good design features however it will give little improvement over what is already fitted and the areas it improves* can be replicaed for less than £30.

* and the improvement is likly to be just at the top end

Edited by Winstar, 27 February 2010 - 08:28 AM.

[theolodian]

My point is that almost everyone who tells you somthing works is generally trying to sell you somthing.

Yes, but again you are tarring with the same brush. It is rather central to the economy that people buy things. I believe that the ITG works for what it is. You are saying that it does not, but your only technical reference is the TMS website?

It is not a spercharger, it is an intake. If people want an intake it is the best one available. But it is just an intake, yet still better value than a catback exhaust. If you don't want one that's fine, but I think that you are being unfair in trying to convince everyone else not to get one when you have not actually tried one.

[RobNA]

I think Winstars (and certainly my view) is that for the £300 you need to spend on the ITG (which is extortionate in my view for what it is) can be almost entirely replicated by an hours worth of modification to the existing airbox.

In no way am I saying you shouldnt buy the ITG, hell, I bought a Larini back box just for the noise but in the same way I didnt buy the backbox for any thoughts of performance gains other than saving a little weight, I wouldnt buy the ITG for performance gains.

However, for enjoyment of the car, noise can be quite an important factor, it is for me /chav

[theolodian]

I think Winstars (and certainly my view) is that for the £300 you need to spend on the ITG (which is extortionate in my view for what it is) can be almost entirely replicated by an hours worth of modification to the existing airbox.

In no way am I saying you shouldnt buy the ITG, hell, I bought a Larini back box just for the noise but in the same way I didnt buy the backbox for any thoughts of performance gains other than saving a little weight, I wouldnt buy the ITG for performance gains.

However, for enjoyment of the car, noise can be quite an important factor, it is for me /chav

Exactly, there is more to an intake than performance. I would also accept that the performance gains of an ITG can mostly be replicated in other ways. However, that does not take away from the ITG being widely considered the best NA intake for performance and other reasons. Debating it being worth the cost vs. other options is fair, saying that it does not work without testing it is not.

[LazyDonkey]

I've got an itg and i love it - the noise is brilliant.........however you simply dont get the BHP gains that ITG claim. Go into it expecting a slightly smoother delivery and a lot more noise and you'll be pleased - go into it expecting a lot more power and you'll be dissapointed. I've got ITG, superchips remap, piper and a removed pre-cat and im only hitting 156bhp.......with the chip contributing 6 of that increase.

[Sutol]

I've got an itg and i love it - the noise is brilliant.........however you simply dont get the BHP gains that ITG claim.

Go into it expecting a slightly smoother delivery and a lot more noise and you'll be pleased - go into it expecting a lot more power and you'll be dissapointed.

I've got ITG, superchips remap, piper and a removed pre-cat and im only hitting 156bhp.......with the chip contributing 6 of that increase.

so excluding the chip the rest gives you 3bhp and thats with the precat removed

Miltek, ITG, remap put me at 165bhp but agree that most of that was the miltek/map

[The Batman]

best induction kit - modify original airbox using drain pipe, so that you have 2 pipes coming out of it, making sure they are long enough to be behind the air vent, cut at slants so that air flows into it, then take away the crap bit of pipe from the tb to airbox, get a 90degree silicon bend put that on tb then drain pipe to airbox

jobs a good'en, list of bits:

drainpipe
90 degree bend
silicon sealant/glue

all be bought for less than £30

or just buy one of these



and im not talking about the carpet

[EssexVX]

I just fitted an ITG today, standard airbox before. All I can say is, Who the hell stole my VSE during the night?! I only really bought it (2nd hand) because of the noise and am very happy with that

[Mangham54]

On my N/A there have been some mods made to the Airbox, but are not like those described above! Don't know who did it, but the former owner, I believe, bought the Airbox pre-modded and just swapped it the old and new over. However the mods are that ther are (If I remember correctly) Two holes in the bottom of the Airbox below the paper filter and one of the internal trumpets has been removed. I still have the original un-modded airbox in the attic. Whether these mods are negatively affecting performance I wouldn't know, but they even with just the OEM exhaust system the car is nice and subtle when using gentle throttle (perfect for my 2.5hr weekly runs up and down the A1) but the engine noise really picks up when the throttle is 50%+ depressed and gives a nice deeper growl. I will try and pull off the lid and get some pictures, but has anyone heard of modding the airbox this way? My only worries are that it will be drawing in warm air from the engine bay rather than the cooler air from the vent, therefore having a small negative effect on power!

Edited by Mangham54, 27 February 2010 - 03:28 PM.

[TheRealVXed]

I would just like to add that the temperature of the air into the engine is not hugely affected by where you are drawing the air from unless you have modified the rest of the intake.... the air temperature is controlled by feeds from the exhaust etc.... the flow is more important to focus on for this mod...

[Winstar]

My point is that almost everyone who tells you somthing works is generally trying to sell you somthing.

Yes, but again you are tarring with the same brush. It is rather central to the economy that people buy things. I believe that the ITG works for what it is. You are saying that it does not, but your only technical reference is the TMS website?

It is not a spercharger, it is an intake. If people want an intake it is the best one available. But it is just an intake, yet still better value than a catback exhaust. If you don't want one that's fine, but I think that you are being unfair in trying to convince everyone else not to get one when you have not actually tried one.

My technical reference is over 8 years of working in fluid dynamics including optimising the design of intake systems. The origianl question asks which is the best well IMO the best is the std if you remove the extra losses of the NVH components. The ITG has a larger bore pipe and bend which will improve you power at high enigne speed but will reduce the torque lower down the velocity will be lower, somthing that is highlighted if you compare the plots on the TMS website. Then you have the filer medium and in this respect I would always prefer to use a paper filter than a foam. I have no problem with people buying them but they should realise that the imporvement will be 99% noise.

I would just like to add that the temperature of the air into the engine is not hugely affected by where you are drawing the air from unless you have modified the rest of the intake.... the air temperature is controlled by feeds from the exhaust etc.... the flow is more important to focus on for this mod...

WTF???

[iceman]

Unfortunately there are more without the needed technical knowledge to redesign the stock unit, than there are those with. So numpties such as myself have to rely on and thus pay the commercial interest on the skill and professional equipment of those that can. Adding the accumulative recommendations and experiences on to those of our own, take on-board/trust when being told by their designers that ITG designed their equipment especially to work to peak performance within the restricting confines of the vx's engine bay, mix into the equation the usage of those vxers we trust to have more of an idea of the process than ourselves and one gets a recommendation for ITG. I only wish that i had the technical knowhow and mechanical skills to prove otherwise but unfortunately i don't, so i pays my money and keep hope that it was wisely spent.

Edited by iceman, 28 February 2010 - 06:09 PM.