100 replies to this topic

[Thorney]

There are two sides to every story and in respect to Steve a protracted argument on line I think would not be prudent. Needless to say we did fail in some regards but we did also make extensive amends and free work to compensate for the delays including after hours pick and deliver, free oil filter change etc etc. A lot of the complaints Steve had were down to timeliness and (as he will readily confirm) due to third parties outside of our control. We've repaired over 60 VX220's now all to good effect. Where we have failed in terms of timing or communication I have done my best to recompense, however remember these cars have a protracted parts availability (Luton, via Hethel, via Opel in Germany and back again) and availability of parts can at best be described as a lottery so when Vxl say 1 week to me it can mean 3 weeks to delivery. I know of one VXR220 at a dealer in London that has been off the road awaiting one part for 4 months. I suppose I'm a little upset at Steves letter being posted as it contains details which he knows full well we were not responsible for, however its his right to make these open should he see fit.

[VIX]

I also have no interest in a protracted online argument (and I will now consider the matter closed) but I felt that stu-vx200 should know of my experience of accident repairs with TMS. Regarding "extensive amends and free work". Let's be clear. You said you would not charge for the service consumable items. I explicitly declined your offer because I did not want it thrown back at me as you have now done. You still went ahead and did not charge for service consumables. I told you again that I would rather pay. The car was not collected out of hours it was collected early afternoon. It was certainly delivered back to me by you at 8pm at night. But then it was supposed to be delivered back to me early that afternoon. And it was your offer to deliver, not my request. I am not otherwise aware of "extensive amends and free work". Availability of parts was not to my knowledge ever an issue. On Friday 4 May Ian confirmed that with the exception of the clam all the spares were in. The following Friday 11 May Ian confirmed that the clam was with the car at the body shop. AFAIK the only unexpected items were the replacement master cylinder after the original blew when being repressurized - I was not told of any delay in getting a replacement - and the replacement bonnet for the one that bubbled - academic as all the other work could be (and was) completed independently. With regard to third-parties, presumably the body-shop Perfect Paint and things "we were not responsible for", surely if you are sub-contracting work to a third-party of your choice, then you do ultimately have to be responsible for their work. Or if they're cr*p is it just tough luck?

[Thorney]

Not much I can say, there is a great deal you are deliberately leaving out and as you say the matter is closed. However we have changed several policies since your car designed to basically end any favours for people at all. Never again will I let a car go unfinished purely on the basis that the onwers KNEW it was unfinished only to have the very things we discussed that needed finishing thrown back in my face. Oh and the irony of this post on a thread where I have gone out of my way to speak to the dealer and the owner of another car to make sure the owner gets their car looked after as they wish is not lost on me.

[n1k_ns]

It wasnt a repair job, but i can safely say that i spent 9 hours at TMS yesterday while all sorts of works were done to my VX and everything seemed to run smoothly and proffesionally. Even the guys working on it stayed after 6PM to fit my Viper Kit that i decided i wanted at the last minute, even Ratboiler (who i met there) said he would not trust anybody other than TMS to work on his car. And Stu - maybe it wouldnt be so bad if Vauxhall were willing to pay for a Milltek exhaust and remap as a 'peace offering' or good will gesture when it gets repaired at Thorney?

Edited by n1k_ns, 02 August 2007 - 08:28 PM.

[ChazUwe]

I don't really want to get involved in the discussion about the why's, where's, when's and what's of this. However, as a friend of Steve's (VIX) I know the stress and heartache he went through trying to get his car back in time for our European trip. There where continual broken promises about when the car would be finished and promises of phone calls to update that never happened. Ultimately this lead to the car being returned 8pm the night before we were due to leave (TMS having had the car for several months). Obviously not enough time to be able to be confident enough in a car to drive 2800 miles! I know that I would never take my car to TMS after hearing the details of this, and the details of various other issues over the years. I have nothing against JT and wish him and his business lots of success. Any company or persons who works so hard developing for these cars should be encouraged. However it is clear by the number of threads that have been posted over the years that some aspects of fundamental customer focus are missing from TMS and JT ethos. These all seem to hinge around the same area COMMUNICATION or lack thereof. This is not a personal dig at JT so please don't take it as one but I can't help but think you would have alot more happy customers if: 1) You only promised something when you are 100% sure you can deliver it 2) If you promise to call someone back then call them back 3) If needs be be less optimisic with timescales to manage expectations 4) When there are problems explain to the customer openly and give them realistic timeframes from there 5) Take on less work, that then means if you have sort out issues with work you have capacity to do so 6) Perhaps work on development and race cars should only be done when the business is running at 100% i.e. full staff load 7) Focus more on less 8) You treat it like a business, it is not a hobby anymore. You refer to some sort of favours being done for steve. When you are being paid £8.5K from an insurance company that is not a favour that is a business transaction. Treat it like one.

[MIKE_VX]

I'd really wanted to avoid going public with this for so many reasons. However, I feel that stu-vx200 should be aware of my recent experience of having accident repairs done by TMS.

Well why didn't you just PM him then? Surely if you thought Stu should know about them, but didn't want to make it public, that would be the most effective way?

Also, Chazuwe's comments are totally superfluous - you say you'll never take your car to TMS, which of course is your choice and I wouldn't look to change it, but your basis for this appears to be only what you have been told by others. This results in a thread with what appears to contain 2 bad experiences of TMS, when in fact it is only based on one.

If a new owner was to come onto the site looking for where to take their car for servicing etc., this sort of posting will provide an unnecessarily negative image of TMS. Where someone has personally received poor service they are of course justified in posting about this experience, and others can then form their own view (although I would question why you need to post it publicly, surely just a PM to people asking a question will suffice - but maybe that's just me that thinks that?). However, to form that view based on others comments, and then post up your opinions on a company citing their reasons to justify it is IMO totally unreasonable and defamatory.

I'm not looking to create further arguments here, and don't have any problem with people posting about their experiences, I just don't agree with people posting 'second hand' views, which with a quick read can appear to come from first hand experience. It's just that this sort of thing seems to go on too much, and is simply not fair on TMS or other companies that are reviewed in this way on the site

[Thorney]

1) You only promised something when you are 100% sure you can deliver it

Agreed, however each time I gave Steve (or anyone for that matter) a time frame it is impossible for me to say with 100% that it is a timeframe that can be met. To give you an example, we look at a bit of work to be done that needs x parts, the only way we can find out if x more parts are needed is by stripping something down and for that we need approval, we get approval strip those parts and another unrelated issue crops up that we can't see until these other parts are off - you tel me, how to I predict with 100% what can happen?

2) If you promise to call someone back then call them back

Agreed, however it did appear that with a previous employye some messages weren't getting through. We now have a new system where are all calls are time stamped so we've sorted that. Fair point though.

3) If needs be be less optimisic with timescales to manage expectations

See above, I try to be as accurate as I can, but VX220's are notorious on parts supply and also the fact that sometimes the whole car comes apart in roder to even find things.

4) When there are problems explain to the customer openly and give them realistic timeframes from there

See above.

5) Take on less work, that then means if you have sort out issues with work you have capacity to do so

Fair comment.

6) Perhaps work on development and race cars should only be done when the business is running at 100% i.e. full staff load

Also fair comment. Racing for us this year has been a tremendous mistake, a decision I regret fully and agree with your comment.

7) Focus more on less

Agreed, and already done.

8) You treat it like a business, it is not a hobby anymore. You refer to some sort of favours being done for steve. When you are being paid £8.5K from an insurance company that is not a favour that is a business transaction. Treat it like one.

It is a business but regardless of this I still try to go the extra mile. With Steves car he specifically asked for the car (when it wasn't finished) in roder to 'shake it down' for the final parts came in an idea I readily agreed with. However when he returned the car with the list of complaints (quite agressively put) they were just the lsit of outstanding issues we knew that were outstanding. The actual bill came to over £9k, I had to absorb the extra costs. Steve specifically said "I don't want it written off" I went to phenominal measures to ensure this didn't happen still making sure the car was in unaffected working order and my result is to get slagged off. As I said, no more favours, no more freebies, no mroe droppng cars off at peoples houses at 8pm at night, no more 'shake down' runs if the car takes longer to fix that we hope then so be it.

You mention Steves 'heartache' this has also massively affected me and all of our insurance work, never again will I let any personal friendship get in the way of the right way of doing something and never again will I bend the rules to help someone to have it thrown in my face just because the times extend through no fault of my own.

[Jaysith]

Do we really need a "Whats your opinion on TMS thread" again? I'm pretty sure we've done that 2-3 times already. /sigh

[djegiant]

YAWN.



How many times has a thread gone in this direction? Can't we just leave the bloke to get on with making a living?

Like a bunch of old women.


IT'S ONLY A CAR!

[Richy]

[quote]name='MIKE_VX' date='Aug 3 2007, 09:25 ' post='622028']
[quote name='VIX' post='621781' date='Aug 2 2007, 17:45 ']
I'd really wanted to avoid going public with this for so many reasons. However, I feel that stu-vx200 should be aware of my recent experience of having accident repairs done by TMS.
[/quote]

Well why didn't you just PM him then? Surely if you thought Stu should know about them, but didn't want to make it public, that would be the most effective way? [/quote]

Why should he just PM him? .. we're all quick enough to post up bad services by other dealers!!


[quote]Also, Chazuwe's comments are totally superfluous - you say you'll never take your car to TMS, which of course is your choice and I wouldn't look to change it, but your basis for this appears to be only what you have been told by others. This results in a thread with what appears to contain 2 bad experiences of TMS, when in fact it is only based on one.

If a new owner was to come onto the site looking for where to take their car for servicing etc., this sort of posting will provide an unnecessarily negative image of TMS. Where someone has personally received poor service they are of course justified in posting about this experience, and others can then form their own view (although I would question why you need to post it publicly, surely just a PM to people asking a question will suffice - but maybe that's just me that thinks that?). However, to form that view based on others comments, and then post up your opinions on a company citing their reasons to justify it is IMO totally unreasonable and defamatory.[/quote]

You have completely contradicted yourself there, first you say Chaz is being 'superfluous' for taking his own view/choice on VIX's experience.. then you go on to say ''Where someone has personally received poor service they are of course justified in posting about this experience, and others can then form their own view''

I also know that Steve is very passionate about his car and was in two minds on where to take it for repair.. He [imo] is also the type of guy that keeps things close to heart - and is certianly not the type of fella to kick up a fuss, he must be pretty peeee'd off about this for him to go public.

I can totally understand what Charlie is saying too.. there are no favours in business, especially if your being paid to provide a certian standard of service to start with - John should know this, over bloody years of self employment myself i've learnt that 'work favours' only start heart ache and conflict.. you do these favours off your own back - there is no reward system for them..

I along with many other can also see that JT takes too much on, and sometimes over fills a plate.. thats what happens when you have a big heart and try to help everyone - sadly when doing this.. people will have promises broken and toes will stepped on.. John can't be 100% spot on all the time - it's not human.

[quote]I'm not looking to create further arguments here, and don't have any problem with people posting about their experiences, I just don't agree with people posting 'second hand' views, which with a quick read can appear to come from first hand experience. It's just that this sort of thing seems to go on too much, and is simply not fair on TMS or other companies that are reviewed in this way on the site [/quote]

At the end of the day i don't think anyone wants to argue over other peoples problems, but as far as im aware - it's always been said and still is - that this is an open forum [even though it's sponsored/created by JT ] so people can post what ever they want [within the forum rules] there's no need to sneak around sending PMs.. which can come across to me as vindictive and back stabing..

I only wish people had been open and honest about the bad service you get at my local dealer, i've had nothing but grief with them and it wasn't untill i posted up on this site, that i found out that many others have had the same shite treatment too - but they had kept quite about it.

Lets it be said i say.. both parties have the right to speak thier minds.

Let the punters decide on who's right and wrong.

Edited by R1CHY, 03 August 2007 - 09:33 AM.

[djegiant]

Rich, that was officially your most boring contribution to this forum, EVER! Worse than that, you can't even spell quiet.

[Thorney]

I'm angry now. There are two sides to every story and clearly you (or anyone else) has heard one side. I'm utterly fcuked off with people coming in and askng "oh, you can do that for me can't you John, you know....for a mate" and I do, every fcuking time I do and then this. Why the fcuk do I bother? For me the car is the most important thing to come in here, we treat them with respect and care and sometimes this means that the owner is compromised on time for which I apologise, but I'd rather get the car done right than rush something just because someone has an important event to go on, or a wedding they really must attend in the car. We never get crash repair cars into the workshop until the parts we need are actually in our hands, but in some repairs there is no way we can know with 100% reliability what we do need, insurance companies don't just pay out just because you say so, they need to see it, then see it again then see a revised estiamte, then they sit on this estimate, then they query it, then they agree it and only then can we order the part we need. Then that order goes to Vauxhall in Luton, it gets passed to Hethel, who pass it to Opel who pass it back to Hethel who authorise shippng to Luton which then comes to us. And then the owner says "ooh, how about we use this Elise part as its a bit better, or this after market part becasue thats better" and we do, we try to flexible, we try to ensure the car is perfect and all this under the constant request that they want the car back asap....well it doens't work that way, either you want the car right or you want it quick I can't do both. Yes, I'm sorry I may have missed calls but then Steve was more than happy just turning up, without any appointment then standing there watching the work going on then doing the same at the bodyshop, then the same with the insurance assesors so in many regards I thought he was perfectly happy with the communication, I always told where the car was, made it available for inspection when nit wasn't being worked on and explained (as accurately as I could) where and when parts would arrive. On parts, the system will show when its in stock, even the stock at other dealers have but back order means back order - ie we've no fcuking idea at all when it will arrive - we don't make it up, Ian doesn't guess, he chases and chases daily on parts frankly (in this case) for absolutely zero recognition and yet for someone to expect a daily call - yes daily, to see when parts will turn up is fair? So, with all this in place, we have a full workshop, we've no idea when a part will turn up and then, bam it arrives, no notice. So we then have to re-arrange a workshop diary to get the car back in, what else can we do? Do we cancel other jobs (its not their fualt after all, they've waited just as long to get in) or do we keep the workshop empty (losing money) on the off chance a part will arrive? You tell me. Steve made some valid points in his letter to me and I responded in kind. However at the same time he made some unfair and some respects completely wrong comments in his letter which I took offence to, however in his own words he wanted the relationship concluded so I took that to mean that, as far as I was concerned the sorry affair was ended. However then I see a post, which is purely designed to hurt us, based on part truths and half the story so I've no choice but to defend ourselves. And then we get third parties chip in, who've heard Steves side of the story and weigh in with second hand, partisan information as if it were gospel truth - thats just not fair. I think I've demonstrated that I'm always keen to listen and learn and enhance our service in any way possible, where I make a mistake I'm open about it, and apologise or recompense where I can, but at the sametime I also deserve a fair treatment myself and in this regard I'm getting shat on. And this whole thread was about a poor guy who got his car damaged at another dealer, he asks for my help and I liase with him, the dealer, the third part car recovery company just to make sure he gets sorted and all this I do for nothing, nowt, and yet I'm a git? Stu, your car and situation will be resolved I'm sure, I'll do what I can to sort this for you. Steve, you made some valid points and some downright unfair ones, I respect your wishes and good luck having you car looked after elsewhere. Chaz, perhaps before making comment you might like to check the details of what you've been told, there are 2 sides to every story, making a comment based on one side is at best imprudent. For anyone else reading, your car is the customer to me, that is the most important thing. I try to be as accurate as aI can be on timings but I can't work miracles. The Vauxhall dealer network is running away from the VX220 at a vast rate of knots, there are some who are still keen on the car but most now refer cars to us bacause frankly they generate too many issues and too great a loss per car for them to work on. The VX220 specialists at some dealers are being re-assigned to other duties, lost or simply not retrained (why bother when they see the car so infrequently) so when one does come in just get rid of it. We love them, I love them but don't kid yourself that everyone does, they are difficult to work one, hard to diagnose sometimes and the parts supply (especially for unique bits that we've never had to replace - ever, as with Steves car before) is at best erratic, you must take into account.

[Richy]

Rich, that was officially your most boring contribution to this forum, EVER!

Worse than that, you can't even spell quiet.

Its taken me 1hr to post that up.. i'm on a laptop that misses letters out when typing,keeps lossing signal -Im also sat in a wet field waiting for someone to build a ramp to do a whip off - i've edited that post twice already - i can't be fcuked to re-due.. quite.. quiet so there!!

Unusual for you to be posting mid-morning - You on school holiday boy!!

[djegiant]

Unusual for you to be posting mid-morning - You on school holiday boy!!

Off sick, Glasgow was starting to destroy my morale. jolly unpleasant area!

I'm guessing that you're not doing the whip??

TangoAlpha: Mind the language please

Dan: Ok.

Edited by djegiant, 03 August 2007 - 10:12 AM.

[Richy]

The last whip i layed down was in a white ceramic bowl around 7am this morning!! Im still on sticks - will be for a while - It's a shoot for a local kid on a 125cc - he just launched off a new 11ft kicker with no pracy run up!!! the kidz got skills or he's just mad - i ain't worked out which. Anyway im off back to it.. chooow

Edited by R1CHY, 03 August 2007 - 10:12 AM.

[MIKE_VX]

You have completely contradicted yourself there, first you say Chaz is being 'superfluous' for taking his own view/choice on VIX's experience.. then you go on to say ''Where someone has personally received poor service they are of course justified in posting about this experience, and others can then form their own view''

Overall, I can see and understand your viewpoint - even if I don't agree with it, but that's the point of an open forum

However, I did not contradict myself. I said people can form their own opinion based on what others have said about their experience. But I then said that they shouldn't then go around posting those opinions based on others' experience as they do not add any further facts / experience to the debate, and only serve to further damage reputations (IMO unfairly), and are hence superfluous.

And then we get third parties chip in, who've heard Steves side of the story and weigh in with second hand, partisan information as if it were gospel truth - thats just not fair.

That's really the whole point of my posts

[Add954]

I would love to take my car to TMS, its just a bit to far to go for me for a few niggles. And surprisingly the vx dude at exeter vauxhall seems really good. Not sure how you can knock a guy who is so passionate about a car you drive. I would rather get my car back perfect than quickly.

[i need nos]

i had a minor accident last year, it involed a new front clam new light new spot light tie rod end and a few other bits , browns of loughton done a cracking job and it took just 2 weeks for the clam to be preped painted and fitted, i got the car back and had it checked elsewhere just to make sure it was good and it was spot on, not slaggin anyone off here but sometimes big looking jobs can be taken care of efficiantly and quickly others can take months, christ i have heard of people not having there cars back for 3 months for just paint bubbling! the point is i think tms have taken a bit of abuse in this thread and i think its a bit harsh, i was unfortunate to live so far away and had a bunch of top blokes local to me attending to any issues i had with my car, otherwise i would have used tms all the time, look at how many pleased customers they have had and how they look after everyone here like its there own family, if u had issues with them then i feel for you but i guess it could have been worse?

[foldu2]

TMS are commented by all the friends and people I know who have specialist cars as SUPERB. I think because of one person who can't wait to get there car back quickly this is a little unfair. As long as the car is perfect when it comes back I dont see theres an issue. Also third party pressures are always any business' problem. You cant rely on people EVER so i sympathise with TMS. I say ignore all the post your doing a sterling job. After all lets be honest guys we're not talking about Ford Fiesta's are we??????????????????

[dw1]

Whilst this thread has gone off topic I want to add my support for TMS. My car has been there many times and I feel my car is in safe hands, they have serviced and done mods including Stage 2 (mmmm) and I am delighted with them. Thank goodness for companies like TMS for our little rollerskate, it would be a lot harder and more fraught without them. Keep up the good work John.