89 replies to this topic

[hutchy]

I don't want to restart the old chargecooler vs intercooler debate again but a thread in the classifieds got me thinking. If it is in fact the case that an Intercooler can't deal with 'stage 4' power, despite several people happily using one in such an application, then would most people think that a large intercooler could cope with 270ish bhp? If so what is the largest intercooler I could squeeze in there? Not particularly inclined to spend the thick end of a grand on a bespoke one when intercoolers double the size can be had for half the price. Has anyone squeezed a more generic intercooler in there or is there only room for the right angled exiting pipe work? As you can tell I haven't put a lot of thought into this was just a thought that came to me. Could an intercooler with both pipes coming from the same end fit? Basically my stage 2 is 240hp. I wouldn't mind another 20bhp but don't want to spend 4 figures going for a proper 'stage 4' set up Any advice appreciated

[cnrandall]

So the heater blower in your car is knackered... How effective do you think it would be to leave the blower alone and fit a bigger heat exchanger?

[hutchy]

I realise what you are saying, but I'm not after the gold standard solution that would support up to your levels or DG levels, randy. My own, old, bog standard intercooler is supporting my 240bhp no bother at all. This led me to believe that a new, slightly bigger, uprated intercooler might be able to cope with another 20-30bhp. I have no interest in spending thousands and chasing big figures, the power and money would be wasted on me. Just wondering if anyone had done a half way house. People are running stage 4 power on a much larger intercooler happily, but that is a subject I don't want to start again.

Edited by hutchy, 15 March 2012 - 10:32 AM.

[turbobob]

Ok, I guess this is something I should answer The reason that some intercoolers cost circa £1k is not because there are large margins. But because the core used in the intercoolers can vary. Some are pretty basic, not very efficient and therefore easy to make. Some are a lot more efficient and time consuming to manufacture. So whilst I openly admit I do not have the facts to back this up, I would suggest that something that is much larger, but still cheaper is not going to perform anywhere as well. In answer to your question about a cheaper intercooler for about 270bhp. I have an uprated intercooler from MMG that is suitable for standard up to stage 3. I believe they are £565 each. Whilst I was at stage 2, I was running 258bhp. I now have an uprated intercooler and a stage 3 map, so I would estimate I am in the 270- 275 bhp region and I am very happy with the performance of it. If you did go stage 4, then you are looking at a different turbo and I would expect it to be 280 bhp plus. This is where you need the uprated intercooler. Fitting the uprated intercooler with the standard turbo may mean you get a slight lag, but you would get a little more lag with a charge cooler.

[cnrandall]

Ok, I guess this is something I should answer

The reason that some intercoolers cost circa £1k is not because there are large margins. But because the core used in the intercoolers can vary. Some are pretty basic, not very efficient and therefore easy to make. Some are a lot more efficient and time consuming to manufacture. So whilst I openly admit I do not have the facts to back this up, I would suggest that something that is much larger, but still cheaper is not going to perform anywhere as well.

In answer to your question about a cheaper intercooler for about 270bhp. I have an uprated intercooler from MMG that is suitable for standard up to stage 3. I believe they are £565 each. Whilst I was at stage 2, I was running 258bhp. I now have an uprated intercooler and a stage 3 map, so I would estimate I am in the 270- 275 bhp region and I am very happy with the performance of it.

If you did go stage 4, then you are looking at a different turbo and I would expect it to be 280 bhp plus. This is where you need the uprated intercooler. Fitting the uprated intercooler with the standard turbo may mean you get a slight lag, but you would get a little more lag with a charge cooler.

I didn't suggest that you spend lots of money... Quite the opposite in fact. The effectiveness of you inercooler is to the large part dictated by the air mass that goes through it. Its a heat exchanger, it transfers heat from your intake charge to the air passing through it, so if there isn't much air passing through it, it won't transfer much heat. So, what I'm saying is, for a very limited amount of money you can probably drive up the efficiency of your current core quite effectively by improving the airflow through it.

[Nev]

Fitting the uprated intercooler with the standard turbo may mean you get a slight lag, but you would get a little more lag with a charge cooler.

Umm, I've seen this information quoted before a few times before, so I thought I better demonstrate how increasing a CC or IC volume does not create any extra perceptable lag:

Assuming your 'stage 4' engine flows for 300 BHP at peak power, it will require approx 13,000 Litres/min (i.e. 216 Litres/sec).
Assuming your new 'larger' CC or IC is approx 4 litres larger this means that extra volume will take 4/216 of a second to fill (ie 0.018 of second).

Thus I hope you can see this is not a practical issue worth mentioning even. I hope that helps clear this one up once and for all

To the OP, there is very limited space in the ear area, making a larger/better generic item fit might be hard (though not impossible).

Edited by Nev, 15 March 2012 - 04:45 PM.

[turbobob]

That's well and good Nev. But what you aren't taking into account is the density of the core and how restrictive it is. Because of the higher density, on a smaller turbo, the flow is more restricted and you are likely to loose 4 to 7 psi with a charge cooler. Therefore adding lag.

[The Batman]

Where did you get that information from?

[Nev]

That's well and good Nev. But what you aren't taking into account is the density of the core and how restrictive it is. Because of the higher density, on a smaller turbo, the flow is more restricted and you are likely to loose 4 to 7 psi with a charge cooler. Therefore adding lag.

Yea you are right in thinking the core shape/density will have a strong influence on the flow and hence BHP particularily at high RPM as the air cant flow fast enough to the engine and effectively artificially starves it of air. However, this is different to inducing lag. Generally speaking on a turbo charged car, lag is a manifestation of impellor latency (ie the time it takes the CHRA to spool from 0 to approx 100,000 RPM). This is primarily influenced by the mass of the CHRA, the resistance of the bearings/spindle, the blade angles and the bore/dia of the incoming exhaust manifold pipe and snail inlet.

For the OP, when I looked at the inlet pipe (in particular) and outlet pipe of my old Pro-Alloy CC I thought were too small and asked Alex to increase these to 76mm. This might be worth thinking about too if you are trying to flow better.

Edited by Nev, 15 March 2012 - 07:58 PM.

[hutchy]

Very interesting, thanks Nev. I wonder if increasing the piper work fore and aft as well as intake, could flow enough air through the oem to make it cope with 270ish? Would venting the arch liner behind increase air flow and therefore efficiency any? I've seen a couple of intercoolers on eBay about 20% bigger than our own, both pipes exiting on top, I will have a look tomorrow to see if that is feasible.

[Dashwood]

I'd like to see what a bit better ducting and an intercooler spray such as this http://www.ebay.co.u...=item3a712bfa30 would do. For a few hours and £50 it's got to be worth a look.

[Dashwood]

Just found an intelligent controller. http://www.elabtroni..._controller.php

[oblomov]

That's well and good Nev. But what you aren't taking into account is the density of the core and how restrictive it is. Because of the higher density, on a smaller turbo, the flow is more restricted and you are likely to loose 4 to 7 psi with a charge cooler. Therefore adding lag.

Yea you are right in thinking the core shape/density will have a strong influence on the flow and hence BHP particularily at high RPM as the air cant flow fast enough to the engine and effectively artificially starves it of air. However, this is different to inducing lag. Generally speaking on a turbo charged car, lag is a manifestation of impellor latency (ie the time it takes the CHRA to spool from 0 to approx 100,000 RPM). This is primarily influenced by the mass of the CHRA, the resistance of the bearings/spindle, the blade angles and the bore/dia of the incoming exhaust manifold pipe and snail inlet.

For the OP, when I looked at the inlet pipe (in particular) and outlet pipe of my old Pro-Alloy CC I thought were too small and asked Alex to increase these to 76mm. This might be worth thinking about too if you are trying to flow better.

I can confirm what Nev says, in my experience lag is so insignificant as to hardly be worth mentioning with 255 bhp stage 2 on a standard intercooler and there is no perceptible difference between that and 300 bhp stage 4 on a pro alloy charge cooler.

[turbobob]

You're missing the point. I'm saying with a standard turbo, i.e. less boost pressure, with the extra pressure loss across the CC, there is more lag. Comparing standard intercooler and standard turbo vs LEH turbo (more boost pressure) and a chargecooler is not like for like. FYI Joe It wasn't MMG that did the measurements. Have you done any pressure drop measurements on a CC? ETA, I'm not getting dragged into yet another debate

Edited by turbobob, 16 March 2012 - 10:37 AM.

[Bumblebee]

My cars at MMG ATM having a c/c fitted,hope I don't experience any lag

[The Batman]

Ah good old pick a couple of numbers out the sky ay tubbybobin

[slindborg]

My cars at MMG ATM having a c/c fitted,hope I don't experience any lag

If you think about lag there will be lag, if you don't think about it there won't be any(more).... happy?

[techieboy]

Fitting the uprated intercooler with the standard turbo may mean you get a slight lag, but you would get a little more lag with a charge cooler.

No axes to grind and frankly not giving a sh!t which is the better solution on a turdo but, why is that?

Surely they're mounted in an identical place so the charge air is going to have an all but identical distance to travel to, through and back from a charge cooler heat exchanger, just as it will with an intercooler heat exchanger?

[The Batman]

oh god..... you went there...

[techieboy]

Afraid so. Just struggling to get my head around that factoid.