533 replies to this topic

[Scuffers]

  I'm not jumping up and down and certainly not getting arsey.  I'm just saying it as I see it.

 

I've published the open length info above.

 

What hope is there for the clever stuff....?  Might want to ask Lotus as Lotus Sports are now fitting Nitrons as standard equipment to ALL Lotus Exige cup cars  and are currenctly negotiating carrying that over to all Sport models also.  But I'm sure they know less than you too Simon

 

You might want to re-read some of your posts then....

 

Also, you don't think commercial realities might have something to do with Lotus supplier choices? Lotus went with Ohlins for the 2 ways on the Exige/2-11's, Ohlins can make some excellent dampers, but the cost limitations  meant that the ones Lotus spec'ed and got are really cheap and not a patch on the quality items Ohlins can make.

 

 

Its not just about ride height

No, it's not, although it's clearly related

 

Just to comment on your very last comment there.. Where would you suggest people learn from?

 

Good question, I was about to say you ask questions, however, as we have just seen, people without a clue are quite happy to answer in an authoritative tone as if they do.

 

A lot of it is actually quite straight forward if you start looking at it from the right end.

 

this specific one about damper lengths is a good example, it's pretty easy to measure up the lengths required on your own car, then spend the time getting your head round the requirements.

 

Obviously when you get to the actual valving of the dampers, this is something that most people are not equipped or have the facilities to get into, it's also where it becomes very much open to subjective input.

 

i think its the hard points are different on the Europa, not the elise , as I posted

 

I would be surprised if that were the case? (never measured one up, but I can see no difference between a VX and Europa sub-frame that would lead to a change in hard points?)

 

I'm not suggesting they're using VX shocks on an Exige although I can see how my post to Chris may be construed in such a manner. I don't for one second think you believe i did mean that though, more you took it as a tenuous point with which to discredit.... typical. I was using the comments as a defence at your high and mighty claims that Nitron cannot handle even basics which clearly isn't true if Lotus are now using them ahead of any other brands.... Not sure what you're accusing me of saying that's tosh mate but I don't really care. You've been banned from forums and race series up and down the country for the way you are so I'm not going to lose any sleep over your comments. I don't know as much as Simon 'the saviour' Scuffham on these matter and do not claim to do so but I do know your type and I can see how you manipulate half truths to make your point and see how disrespectful you are to people.

 

Sorry, that's exactly what you said, if you did not want that interpretation, learn to write less ambiguously.

 

Also, your getting personal now, which is pretty funny considering what I get accused of most of the time.

 

Nearly 1/2 way to 7 pages.. Keep it going

 

Sadly, yes.... 

[chris_uk]

Just to chat about the getting your own info efc, even if you got that info and fully understood it, If i went to any shock manufacturer armed with what i wanted and said i wanted a set of shocks with X with Y droop with Z this that and the other they would look at me stupid and say this is all we have got take it or leave it.. So even tho you have the info you cant get what you want because nobody will build you a custom set without paying muchos money? So what options do you have? Unless im mistaken and they will build you custom sets at the same price.. I cant see it tho.

[slindborg]

Just to chat about the getting your own info efc, even if you got that info and fully understood it, If i went to any shock manufacturer armed with what i wanted and said i wanted a set of shocks with X with Y droop with Z this that and the other they would look at me stupid and say this is all we have got take it or leave it.. So even tho you have the info you cant get what you want because nobody will build you a custom set without paying muchos money? So what options do you have? Unless im mistaken and they will build you custom sets at the same price.. I cant see it tho.

 

 

While I appreciate they arent the most popular chaps in the VElise world, GAZ would make a set to spec I would imagine.

Afterall they modded the VX kit to raise the ride height as per my gay request

[Scuffers]

Just to chat about the getting your own info efc, even if you got that info and fully understood it, If i went to any shock manufacturer armed with what i wanted and said i wanted a set of shocks with X with Y droop with Z this that and the other they would look at me stupid and say this is all we have got take it or leave it.. So even tho you have the info you cant get what you want because nobody will build you a custom set without paying muchos money? So what options do you have? Unless im mistaken and they will build you custom sets at the same price.. I cant see it tho.

not sure that's true....

 

I guess it depends who you talk to and what you want...

 

My view is that armed with the physical requirements for your dampers, you can then ask the various makes what they offer and take a view on it.

 

Yes, you could go to EP and ask them to make something different, and (within reason) it could be done, but obviously it will cost, and I am sure Nitron will do the same (within what's possible to make).

 

the real bit here though is that for a given car, the 'right' spec is going to be there or there abouts, so said manufacture should have already got their offering in line with this.

 

Now, for the OEM (Lotus in this case), they knew exactly what ride heights they wanted, and what performance envelop they wanted the dampers to operate in, and within their budget they came up with the best compromise.

 

if your selling a damper as an after-market item, then the requirements are not that simple, as you will have people trying to achieve different goals, for example, most people will want to lower their cars, run different sized wheels/tyres, change their uprights, etc etc.. so your damper has gone from a pretty fixed and defined requirement into a jack of all trades scenario.

 

for example, Mikes car has EP's GT race uprights fitted, these move the ride height some ~45mm, this obliviously has a direct impact on the available bump/droop and thus the damper will be working in a different part of the window of wishbone articulation, thus if your dampers are only able to cover a limited part of this window, you are now going to have to re-spec them, however, as Mikes car has Quantums designed with the right stroke etc, then they did not require to be made as one-offs and are the same physical spec as off the shelf ones.

[Crabash]

My old NTR 40's are 435mm and 80mm travel on the rear (CBA to measure the fronts, they are boxed up for shipping) so I assume it is possible to get them in different lengths if you know what to ask for. Not saying mine are right but they are different to everything I have seen on this post. (oh and not specced by me BTW)

 

I have to say regardless of Simon being right or wrong, for me he raises a good point, how many of you have thrown money at various pre configured "upgrades" and not been 100% happy once you get over the wow factor. I have done this in the past and now although I have no problem paying for what I want, I do like to at least try to understand the engineering and physics behind that product. Although I will listen to what people have to say I don't believe anything without thinking about it and trying to figure out whats going on myself. At the end of the day right or wrong it will be me that fcuked it up

Edited by Crabash, 27 June 2013 - 02:38 PM.

[Scuffers]

interesting..... (also, have you included the bump rubber in the 80mm)

[Crabash]

Yes I did.

Sorry did you mean measured from bump rubber? yes to this

Or 80mm minus bump rubber? no to this

Edited by Crabash, 27 June 2013 - 02:41 PM.

[Scuffers]

Yes I did. Sorry did you mean measured from bump rubber? yes to this Or 80mm minus bump rubber? no to this

lol confused me now! stroke is the total shaft travel without the bump rubber getting in the way. and PS. really refreshing to see somebody with your outlook and attitude.

[Crabash]

In that case stroke would be 80mm plus the rubber.

I have 80mm to hitting the rubber.

 

FYI they were good on track but they should have had helpers on the rear from the start, as you say hard springs meant there was little compression on the spring so after a small amount of droop the spring was off the seat or you had to run quite high ride height to stop that happening. Which meant the usefull travel was actually a lot less than what the damper could do.

[Scuffers]

In that case stroke would be 80mm plus the rubber. I have 80mm to hitting the rubber.   FYI they were good on track but they should have had helpers on the rear from the start, as you say hard springs meant there was little compression on the spring so after a small amount of droop the spring was off the seat or you had to run quite high ride height to stop that happening. Which meant the usefull travel was actually a lot less than what the damper could do.

well, on paper, they are about spot on for a VX then! (just need some helpers)

[Crabash]

Yep my conclusion too (credit to Mr Randal) just needs the helpers.

 

P.S. my new dampers are the 46Race, I hope to have achieved the same with use of adjustable bottom eye to give me the desired overall length and retain even preload.

Does that sound logical?

Edited by Crabash, 27 June 2013 - 03:05 PM.

[Sticky]

Yep my conclusion too (credit to Mr Randal) just needs the helpers.

Are yours made after 2010?

[Crabash]

They were fitted march/april 2010 ordered I guess a few weeks before.

 

Again I stress they were a non standard damper ordered by crandal to his spec.

Edited by Crabash, 27 June 2013 - 03:12 PM.

[siztenboots]

I wonder if we gave a list of sample serial numbers to nitron , if they could pass back the build details

[Sticky]

They were fitted march/april 2010 ordered I guess a few weeks before.   Again I stress they were a non standard damper ordered by crandal to his spec.

6 months makes quite a difference it seems.

[Crabash]

 

They were fitted march/april 2010 ordered I guess a few weeks before.   Again I stress they were a non standard damper ordered by crandal to his spec.

6 months makes quite a difference it seems.

 

 

To be fair it seems it's not so much what Nitron changed as what crandal asked for.

[Scuffers]

Yep my conclusion too (credit to Mr Randal) just needs the helpers.   P.S. my new dampers are the 46Race, I hope to have achieved the same with use of adjustable bottom eye to give me the desired overall length and retain even preload. Does that sound logical?

kind off, although i would not bother, just another thing to have to set, and if you have quality springs and your cars not bent, you will end upnwith them being set equal anyway.

[garyk220]

Simon, that makes a lot of sense to me now. I had 2-way adjustable Nitron NTR on my VXT several years ago. Jacking up the side sill by less than 20mm would lift front and rear tyres clear off the ground. Rear droop was pretty close to zero, front about 15-20 mm.

 

The grip was great on billiard table smooth tracks, but traction and rear grip were not great on high speed bends or when trail braking into slower bends. I put this down to the weight of the engine and lack of a rear wing. But I can see now how next to no rear droop would have made a big contribution to the handling issues. Ride height wasn't excessively low at 110/120.

 

I hated them on the road and switched back to OE Bilsteins. Relatively softly sprung and loads of damper travel transformed the car's grip and traction on bumpy roads. I remember not long after getting my car, following an Elise Sport 160 on LSS along a single track road with loads of dips and crests and plenty of bumps. Even allowing for carrying an extra 150kg of weight, my car was much faster through and out of the bumpier sections of road.

 

I wish I had understood some of this before wasting £2k on a poorly specced upgrade. Wouldn't like to add up how much I wasted fitting expensive 'upgrades' from specialist tuners. The original Pace charge cooler supplied by Courtenay was another expensive lesson.

[Sticky]

 

They were fitted march/april 2010 ordered I guess a few weeks before.   Again I stress they were a non standard damper ordered by crandal to his spec.

6 months makes quite a difference it seems.  

  To be fair it seems it's not so much what Nitron changed as what crandal asked for.

Mine aren't standard Nitrons.

[Crabash]

 

Yep my conclusion too (credit to Mr Randal) just needs the helpers.   P.S. my new dampers are the 46Race, I hope to have achieved the same with use of adjustable bottom eye to give me the desired overall length and retain even preload. Does that sound logical?

kind off, although i would not bother, just another thing to have to set, and if you have quality springs and your cars not bent, you will end upnwith them being set equal anyway.

 

 

I see your point yes, preload should be more or less even anyway if the car is straight.

Was more thinking of overall length adjustment available if required, guess I can sort that if and when. No need to spend the cash unless I need to.