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Nitron Ntr 40's V Ntr 46's

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#21 Scuffers

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:01 AM

With all due respect I'm not aware of having overlooked any facts here....?  Here's a fact for you Simon using equally broad and unfair statements as you so cleverly use to promote your wares....

 

Measured droop on my Nitrons = 95mm

Measured droop on Quantums in your thread = 80mm

 

They are facts so your comments about droop are innacurate.  I do not belieive that will stop you saying it regularly though.

 

did you actually read me post?

 

and quoting droop measurements is somewhat meaningless without also quoting the static ride height to go with that.

 

How about actually stating what the open and closed lengths are? you know, something actually empirical that others can measure/check for themselves?

 

Posted Image

 

(note the use of a helper spring, that's pre-loaded to the point of coil bound, and the use of two bump rubbers to try and limit the travel (otherwise the top wishbone will contact the sub-frame)

 

so what we have here is a damper with enough stroke but way too short (in fact, it's lengths are just about right for the S1 Elise!)

 

oh, and for the record (again) I do not sell dampers or get paid commission on damper sales.


Edited by Scuffers, 27 June 2013 - 07:09 AM.


#22 Bargi

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:24 AM

Gaz golds, their good right?

Nickels FTW :)

#23 fiveoclock

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 07:58 AM

So, Quantum reliability, any returns?

#24 cnrandall

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:00 AM

 

With all due respect I'm not aware of having overlooked any facts here....?  Here's a fact for you Simon using equally broad and unfair statements as you so cleverly use to promote your wares....

 

Measured droop on my Nitrons = 95mm

Measured droop on Quantums in your thread = 80mm

 

They are facts so your comments about droop are innacurate.  I do not belieive that will stop you saying it regularly though.

 

did you actually read me post?

 

and quoting droop measurements is somewhat meaningless without also quoting the static ride height to go with that.

 

How about actually stating what the open and closed lengths are? you know, something actually empirical that others can measure/check for themselves?

 

Posted Image

 

(note the use of a helper spring, that's pre-loaded to the point of coil bound, and the use of two bump rubbers to try and limit the travel (otherwise the top wishbone will contact the sub-frame)

 

so what we have here is a damper with enough stroke but way too short (in fact, it's lengths are just about right for the S1 Elise!)

 

oh, and for the record (again) I do not sell dampers or get paid commission on damper sales.

 

 

Nitron went through a period of selling dampers too short for the VX.  I had them sort that out many moons ago now though.



#25 Sticky

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:03 AM


 


With all due respect I'm not aware of having overlooked any facts here....?  Here's a fact for you Simon using equally broad and unfair statements as you so cleverly use to promote your wares....
 
Measured droop on my Nitrons = 95mm
Measured droop on Quantums in your thread = 80mm
 
They are facts so your comments about droop are innacurate.  I do not belieive that will stop you saying it regularly though.
 

did you actually read me post?
 
and quoting droop measurements is somewhat meaningless without also quoting the static ride height to go with that.
 
How about actually stating what the open and closed lengths are? you know, something actually empirical that others can measure/check for themselves?
 
Posted Image
 
(note the use of a helper spring, that's pre-loaded to the point of coil bound, and the use of two bump rubbers to try and limit the travel (otherwise the top wishbone will contact the sub-frame)
 
so what we have here is a damper with enough stroke but way too short (in fact, it's lengths are just about right for the S1 Elise!)
 
oh, and for the record (again) I do not sell dampers or get paid commission on damper sales.
 
 
Nitron went through a period of selling dampers too short for the VX.  I had them sort that out many moons ago now though.
Shame I bought mine 3 months before they sorted the problem!

Having coil bound helpers is an inexcusable error from the supplier/fitter though :(

#26 Bumblebee

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:17 AM

Have anyone noticed any difference I.e negatives driving The car on the road/track?

Edited by Bumblebee, 27 June 2013 - 08:24 AM.


#27 rob999

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:27 AM

Sounds like you were a little unlucky Nick, supplier shouldn't have made that error.

#28 Sticky

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:42 AM

There are a number of frustrating aspects to this. Firstly Nitron should be able to make a suitable product. Ok they updated the design in 2010 but where does that leave me with 2009 dampers? I'm a layman in this field so how am I supposed to know what's right or wrong? That's what I pay the supplier to tell or advise me. Secondly the supplier should have highlighted the fact there was too little droop but also should not have supplied coil bound helpers-that's just wrong IMHO. Thirdly I have has the car geo'd a couple of times since the fitting and neither place (they are both reputable and well regarded motorsport organisations)has highlighted these issues, why not? Why does it take a third? Now I have to spend even more money rectifying the problem but it will still not be ideal :( Apologies for the rant but I'm just pissed off

#29 slindborg

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:49 AM

Welcome to the choooooning industry.



#30 Sticky

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:50 AM

Welcome to the choooooning industry.

Cheers Stu, you make me feel soooo much better :D

#31 JimmyJamJerusalem

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 08:50 AM

Simon, I was being intentionally obtuse quoting the droop figures but it is no different to what you are doing with your disingenuous comments.  You've latched on to what seems to be a genuine mistake made by a reputable company and you seem to be quoting that as gospel for all of their products....  Chris has pointed out that this was dealt with a long time ago (I've certainly never seen a case of this) so change the record mate.

 

We all know Nitron and Quantum both make great shocks and I supply both as I believe in the products.  I'm not here to slag off one to promote the other but Simon it seems you are. 

 

You dodge direct questions and just reply with the odd "fact" and insult.....  Not cricket old bean.

 

I've not read that other thread yet but was shocked to see the video of Nicks car.  Nick have you spoken to Nitron about this?



#32 chris_uk

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 09:03 AM

There are a number of frustrating aspects to this. Firstly Nitron should be able to make a suitable product. Ok they updated the design in 2010 but where does that leave me with 2009 dampers? I'm a layman in this field so how am I supposed to know what's right or wrong? That's what I pay the supplier to tell or advise me. Secondly the supplier should have highlighted the fact there was too little droop but also should not have supplied coil bound helpers-that's just wrong IMHO. Thirdly I have has the car geo'd a couple of times since the fitting and neither place (they are both reputable and well regarded motorsport organisations)has highlighted these issues, why not? Why does it take a third? Now I have to spend even more money rectifying the problem but it will still not be ideal :( Apologies for the rant but I'm just pissed off

Probably because they dont actually know themselves.

#33 Sticky

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 09:05 AM

  I've not read that other thread yet but was shocked to see the video of Nicks car.  Nick have you spoken to Nitron about this?

Yes. 'You have a 2009 damper Sir so the droop will be wrong. If you pay us £xxx then we can make it a bit better. Thank you' What really pisses me off are the helpers. Ok the design was wrong for the damper, ok they sorted that but I was supplied something that was wrong (the helpers) they don't work except to hold the main spring on the collar. How can a reputable company fit them and take my money? It's morally wrong. It would be like me testing a patient's eyes and dispensing them a pair of ill fitting glasses with the wrong prescription and hoping they don't notice. I wouldn't and couldn't do it.

#34 Scuffers

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 09:08 AM

So, Quantum reliability, any returns?

I'm not really the right person to ask that of, I am aware of a handful that have been returned to be looked at, but I don't have the detail - you would need to ask Quantum/EP this, they are the ones that actually see/deal with this stuff.

 

Nitron went through a period of selling dampers too short for the VX.  I had them sort that out many moons ago now though.

 

Yes, I understand (from Nitron) that the later ones are different, but they are still only 402mm open length (ie, ~7mm longer), ie, bugger all in it and still some 25-30mm too short.

 

Simon, I was being intentionally obtuse quoting the droop figures but it is no different to what you are doing with your disingenuous comments.  You've latched on to what seems to be a genuine mistake made by a reputable company and you seem to be quoting that as gospel for all of their products....  Chris has pointed out that this was dealt with a long lont time ago (I've certainly never seen a case of this) so change the record mate.

 

We all know Nitron and Quantum both make great shocks and I supply both as I believe in the products.  I'm not here to slag off one to promote the other but Simon it seems you are. 

 

You dodge direct questions and just reply with the odd "fact" and insult.....  Not cricket old bean.

 

I've not read that other thread yet but was shocked to see the video of Nicks car.  Nick have you spoken to Nitron about this?

 

Look, you can jump up and down all you like, if you want to get all arsey about it, go for it, however, it does not change the basic facts.

 

I note that in all your winging, you have yet to offer one single piece of hard data on any of these threads, only that they are great - really objective stuff.

 

the simple facts are that for whatever reason, Nitrons std offering (both old and new) are physically spec'ed wrong for the VX, in that their open length is too short, leading to the closed length being short enough for wishbone/subframe contact to me made (something already mentioned by others about various dampers).

 

Look, this stuff is not rocket science, if you can't even get the basic measurements right when making stuff, what hope is there for the 'cleaver' stuff?

 

As for the video, I took that when Matt was working on Nicks car and commented about the lack of droop, seeing it like that makes it pretty obvious what the issues are.

 

No, I have not spoken to Nitron about it, why is it my job to tell them how to make dampers?

 

Yes, Nitron have been asked about this specific set of dampers (by Matt on behalf of Nick), the reply came back that these are pre-2010 ones and the post 2010 ones are 402mm long (ie, +~7mm), they have offered to change them to current sped (at a cost).

 

the problem with that is the current spec is still wrong.

 

All that said, I am sure your going to pour more scorn on me for pointing out the blindingly obvious and how it's all my fault etc etc...



#35 techieboy

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 09:09 AM

I think all of the early Nitron sizing issues might be traced back to Sticky's car anyway. Nitron built all of the original VX NTR stuff to spec's JT gave them from his race cars so they were based on a mishmash of legacy Elise specs and partially butchered VX chassis'. 



#36 Scuffers

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 09:11 AM

I think all of the early Nitron sizing issues might be traced back to Sticky's car anyway. Nitron built all of the original VX NTR stuff to spec's JT gave them from his race cars so they were based on a mishmash of legacy Elise specs and partially butchered VX chassis'. 

 

that's a worry....

 

probably should remind people at this point that the VX is no different in damper length requirements than the S2 Toyota engines Elise's, there really is no excuse for getting it so wrong.



#37 siztenboots

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 09:17 AM

the S2 elise rear subframe is different, I was told the top suspension bolt bracket position is different



#38 cnrandall

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 09:17 AM

There are a number of frustrating aspects to this. Firstly Nitron should be able to make a suitable product. Ok they updated the design in 2010 but where does that leave me with 2009 dampers? I'm a layman in this field so how am I supposed to know what's right or wrong? That's what I pay the supplier to tell or advise me. Secondly the supplier should have highlighted the fact there was too little droop but also should not have supplied coil bound helpers-that's just wrong IMHO. Thirdly I have has the car geo'd a couple of times since the fitting and neither place (they are both reputable and well regarded motorsport organisations)has highlighted these issues, why not? Why does it take a third? Now I have to spend even more money rectifying the problem but it will still not be ideal :( Apologies for the rant but I'm just pissed off

 

You have one issue... The dampers are too short, this is why the helpers are doing very little at the ride heights you are running.  I'm guessing that Nitron probably designed the lengths around a race car, or a road car who wanted to run silly ride heights and the spec got frozen.



#39 chris_uk

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 09:39 AM

So The shortest length (compressed) wants to be x so it cant contact the chassis, wishbones etc. The longest length (fully open) wants to be x to allow a decent amount of droop to keep the tyre in contact with the floor. this value i assume can be variable to a point as long as its at least x length Am i close? Scuffs can you fill in x please?

#40 JimmyJamJerusalem

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Posted 27 June 2013 - 09:47 AM

Some facts for Simon

 

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]Open Length (OL) standard OE shocks:  356mm[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]OL Street Series:  345.3mm   (Difference 10.7mm shorter)[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]OL NTR shocks 327mm    (Difference 29mm shorter)[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"] [/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]REAR:[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"] [/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]Open Length (OL) standard OE shocks:  420mm[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]OL Street Series:  415mm   (Difference 5mm shorter)[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]OL NTR shocks 402mm    (Difference 18mm shorter)[/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"] [/font]

[font="Calibri, 'sans-serif';font-size:11pt;"]What you can see are very small differences.  Now, when fitting stiffer springs and lowering the car, the shocks must be shortened.  There is FAR too much droop on the VXs, and getting the shocks to be slightly shorter is a must.[/font]

 







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