939 replies to this topic

[Zuber]

Of course the 2 aren't the same thing. But if people are willing to accept advanced alien being created say the solar system, including earth and life on it. Then I struggle to see why they are so unable to accept God... Humans worshipping aliens isn't exactly hard to believe. Think of all the sci-fi. Being punished if you don't do what the aliens tell you isn't far fetched either apparently. But mention God, and instantly it's all unbelievable...

[slindborg]

Is it not a teeeeny tiny bit arrogant of mankind to a) assume that their god (should he exist) values mankind at top of the heap and the only things to have souls and b.) that mankind is the only place in the universe to host life.... I mean if god is real he'd have atleast had a crack at a few sandbox planets first to get an eye in

[Zuber]

Is it not a teeeeny tiny bit arrogant of mankind to a) assume that their god (should he exist) values mankind at top of the heap and the only things to have souls and b.) that mankind is the only place in the universe to host life.... I mean if god is real he'd have atleast had a crack at a few sandbox planets first to get an eye in

 

Where does it say out there that our world is the only world ?

 

Sandbox planets ? All knowing, so unrequired. But if you like, Mecury, Venus, Mars...  

Edited by Zuber, 22 December 2013 - 08:29 PM.

[slindborg]

How does he become all knowing? Is there a school to learn all things or has he come into being at the hands of a higher god who I turn needed a higher god and so on until it becomes ridiculous

[Zuber]

How does he become all knowing? Is there a school to learn all things or has he come into being at the hands of a higher god who I turn needed a higher god and so on until it becomes ridiculous

 

It's easy. As with all these things. You go to the very beginning. He's there... Since He is Eternal and The Lord and Creator of Time and Space, there is no before

Edited by Zuber, 23 December 2013 - 05:47 AM.

[KurtVerbose]

As to your 'No Idea Why' question.

According to Islamic teachings, the reason would be that we have it built into us by design. Hence religion has been around and flourished as long as we can recall and found independently in different parts of the world despite no communications between these communities.

So it's not based on any kind of logic or reasoning, just some bizzare genetic flaw that some people have?

 

[LY_Scott]

I had similar conversation at work the other day.

 

I reasonable person, an IT person, an engineer. Who in the main talks reasoned thought through sense started to tell me he was convinced we use gods name in vain and know the names Jesus Christ, God, etc because they are ingrained into us from birth and this is part of the proof of god....

 

WHAT THE fcuk.

 

We use these words for the same reasons I use aye and naw and dreich and pothole and telly. They're words in the language I grew up with. He was amazed I couldnt understand. Lost all respect for him as a sane person really. I had the same thing a few years ago with a guy who tried to convince me his God buried dinosaurs to test people's faith.

 

Religions exist around the world because we all tried to explain the world around us in the best way we could. Some worshipped the stars, some worshiped the trees. The greeks believed there were gods for everything and they lived up a mountain. Native Americans beleive in spirits and do dances for rain.

 

It's not genetic. its cultural. It's what you are brought up with.

 

If you look at the vastness of space you'd be arrogant to suggest we understand everything. But thats what seperates science from the big religions. Science doesn't assert that it knows all. Because no-one does.

[slindborg]

 

How does he become all knowing? Is there a school to learn all things or has he come into being at the hands of a higher god who I turn needed a higher god and so on until it becomes ridiculous

 

It's easy. As with all these things. You go to the very beginning. He's there... Since He is Eternal and The Lord and Creator of Time and Space, there is no before

 

Will there be an end then? You cant have a beginning and no end, that doesnt work,

 

if so, when is the end nigh, so I can be a hyppocrit and pray n shiz as 'he' wont mind that I've doubted his existence as hes forgiving and stuff.

[KurtVerbose]

It's not genetic. its cultural. It's what you are brought up with.

 

Even the language of it athiests can't escape. 'Don't believe in god' - it's like there is a god but you don't believe in him. 'No, I don't believe there's a god'.

[Zuber]

When I said I'll bite, I wasn't expecting a Banquet

 

 

 

As to your 'No Idea Why' question.

According to Islamic teachings, the reason would be that we have it built into us by design. Hence religion has been around and flourished as long as we can recall and found independently in different parts of the world despite no communications between these communities.

So it's not based on any kind of logic or reasoning, just some bizzare genetic flaw that some people have?

 

 

 

How on earth did you get from 'built into us by design' to 'some bizzare genetic flaw' ? Not sure if I follow...

 

I had similar conversation at work the other day.

 

I reasonable person, an IT person, an engineer. Who in the main talks reasoned thought through sense started to tell me he was convinced we use gods name in vain and know the names Jesus Christ, God, etc because they are ingrained into us from birth and this is part of the proof of god....

 

WHAT THE fcuk.

 

Can't say I disagree with you there. But then I'm not a Christian, so I would say that...

 

 

 I had the same thing a few years ago with a guy who tried to convince me his God buried dinosaurs to test people's faith.

 

Again, no such teaching in Islam. Don't wish to criticize others beliefs etc. and not an expert on my own religion let alone others... But I assume this sort of thing stems from some Christian interpretations of Bible teachings that put the world at 5000-6000 years old and the potential confusion that follows.

 

My understanding, Islam (and by extension original authentic Christianity) would have no problem with there being dinosaurs, the Earth being Billions of years old, the Universe being unimaginably vast and the Earth not being at the center of it...

 

I can only speak for myself... But I prefer to think that I have belief based on a reasonably formed opinion and engaged in the real, rather than cover your eyes and ears 'Blind Faith'... But at the end of the day it happens to be the faith I was born into, which clearly has an influence and ultimately it is 'faith'. There are plenty of very intelligent people (way cleverer than me...) that have come to accept Islam having followed their own path... Hamza Yusuf is an interesting one to listen to on YouTube. I find his Journey to Islam video quite inspirational.

 

 

Religions exist around the world because we all tried to explain the world around us in the best way we could. Some worshipped the stars, some worshiped the trees. The greeks believed there were gods for everything and they lived up a mountain. Native Americans beleive in spirits and do dances for rain.

 

It's not genetic. its cultural. It's what you are brought up with.

My explanation probably wasn't the best (nor do I have any deep understanding on the matter). But the 'genetic' bit as you put it that I was referring to is a natural predisposition to accept and believe in God. Cultures then build on this predisposition for better or worse. But to me it does seem like there is an in built human 'condition' 'that there is something more' than bust our flesh and blood...

 

 

 

If you look at the vastness of space you'd be arrogant to suggest we understand everything. But thats what seperates science from the big religions. Science doesn't assert that it knows all. Because no-one does.

 

Not sure if I follow on this one. Do the 'big Religions' claim to assert that their leaders/followers understand everything ? News to me, that would be Arrogant indeed.

My understanding is that it is God that knows everything (so I guess that would be the separator). In fact, we are told the vastness of Gods creation and artistry is truly beyond our comprehension.

 

"If all the trees on earth were pens and all the seas, with seven more seas besides, [were ink,] still God’s words would not run out: God is almighty and all wise." Translation of verse from the Quran.

 

 

 

How does he become all knowing? Is there a school to learn all things or has he come into being at the hands of a higher god who I turn needed a higher god and so on until it becomes ridiculous

 

It's easy. As with all these things. You go to the very beginning. He's there... Since He is Eternal and The Lord and Creator of Time and Space, there is no before

 

Will there be an end then? You cant have a beginning and no end, that doesnt work,

 

if so, when is the end nigh, so I can be a hyppocrit and pray n shiz as 'he' wont mind that I've doubted his existence as hes forgiving and stuff.

 

 

You can have a beginning and no end. That is a well understood concept. Hence you have the mathematical concepts of Zero (Nothing, the beginning) and Infinity (Never Ending).

 

When is the End Nigh ? Frequently asked question...

 

If you mean 'Judgement Day' etc. Information deliberately withheld. I'm guessing at least in part to prevent people leaving things to the End... From a practical point of view, we are told the end (in terms of this world) is when you die. Again the 'when' deliberately withheld presumably for the same reasons. Don't need to be the all Mighty to see you coming

 

Post the end of the Universe as we know it - The Remake, Eternal...

[KurtVerbose]

How on earth did you get from 'built into us by design' to 'some bizzare genetic flaw' ? Not sure if I follow....

 

Zuber, our design is held in our genes.

 

I'll reiterate, although I think I was pretty clear.

 

If there was a logical reason for believing there's a god I could understand that, but not because of some 'natural predisposition to accept and believe in God'. How does that mean that one exists? You might as well say 'because I believe there's a god, there is a god'.

[Zuber]

 

How on earth did you get from 'built into us by design' to 'some bizzare genetic flaw' ? Not sure if I follow....

 

Zuber, our design is held in our genes.

 

 

Yep, and amazing it is too, No problem with that. Though from the religious stand point, it's not just our genes. add to that the Soul or Consciousness or Spirit etc. depending on where you are coming from/how you translate stuff.

 

 

I'll reiterate, although I think I was pretty clear.

 

If there was a logical reason for believing there's a god I could understand that, but not because of some 'natural predisposition to accept and believe in God'. How does that mean that one exists? You might as well say 'because I believe there's a god, there is a god'.

 

 

I think I get you now.

 

The original statement was "No idea why people would believe all this made up stuff. Incredible that people still believe in it."

 

To which I replied.

 

"According to Islamic teachings, the reason would be that we have it built into us by design. Hence religion has been around and flourished as long as we can recall and found independently in different parts of the world despite no communications between these communities."

 

i.e. An possible explanation to "why people would believe all this made up stuff. Incredible that people still believe in it." Part of the reason why people are looking for/finding belief.

 

Not to be confused with what I think you are talking about. Which is an actual Proof or basis for what specifically to believe. Hope that makes sense.

 

In that context, your statement "So it's not based on any kind of logic or reasoning, just some bizzare genetic flaw that some people have?" doesn't make any sense. At least to me...

 

Hey, I didn't claim to be an expert. But happy to engage in debate and explore some.

Edited by Zuber, 23 December 2013 - 03:47 PM.

[G-Bob]

 

 

 

You might as well say 'because I believe there's a god, there is a god'.

 

 

In some people's eyes that is good enough.  Not mine, but I'm not going to argue with them for it.

Some people believe in ghosts, and you can't tell them otherwise.

[Harry Hornet]

isnt this much the same as

 

Standard NA's are so much better than Turdo's and vice versa......

 

............time to move on me thinks...at this time of good will to all men..(but then why isnt that all the time)  

 

HH

 

 

Edited by Harry Hornet, 23 December 2013 - 04:02 PM.

[KurtVerbose]

 

To all you religious people - thanks for the religious holidays!

[Zuber]

isnt this much the same as

 

Standard NA's are so much better than Turdo's and vice versa......

 

............time to move on me thinks...at this time of good will to all men..(but then why isnt that all the time)  

 

HH

 

 

 

You are trying to get on topic. This is the Off Topic section

[ghand]

isnt this much the same as   Standard NA's are so much better than Turdo's and vice versa......   ............time to move on me thinks...at this time of good will to all men..(but then why isnt that all the time)     HH    

  You are trying to get on topic. This is the Off Topic section

move on, your having a laugh, you move on we are just getting started, it's a long running subject. (NA) Now Zuber before being interrupted what was you saying Oh yes, Spirit or consciousness, isn't that just us being more intelligent than say and animal, wanting to believe we move on when we croak? We have the intellect to think what could happen or more to the point what some of us want to happen. Some will never accept the lights go out and that's it over so they look to religion in the hope of going some place else after death.

[KurtVerbose]

In that context, your statement "So it's not based on any kind of logic or reasoning, just some bizzare genetic flaw that some people have?" doesn't make any sense. At least to me...

 

When I wrote this I wasn't asking why people want to believe in a god, I was questioning why they do? I realise the two can be linked, as you have done, but a god doesn't exist just because people need one or want one.

 

No idea why people would believe all this made up stuff. Incredible that people still believe in it.

 

I have no interest in why people want to believe there's a god, and it's not actually what this thread is about. I have a mild interest in why they think there is one if there's some kind of reasoned logic in it.

 

[ghand]

In that context, your statement "So it's not based on any kind of logic or reasoning, just some bizzare genetic flaw that some people have?" doesn't make any sense. At least to me...

  When I wrote this I wasn't asking why people want to believe in a god, I was questioning why they do? I realise the two can be linked, as you have done, but a god doesn't exist just because people need one or want one.  

No idea why people would believe all this made up stuff. Incredible that people still believe in it.

  I have no interest in why people want to believe there's a god, and it's not actually what this thread is about. I have a mild interest in why they think there is one if there's some kind of reasoned logic in it.  

Well I'm blowed if I can find one Just think how much of a persons life is wasted sitting in church, praying and all the other stuff they don't do following a religion if at the end, click the lights just go out. Now that would p*ss me off, then again you wouldn't know

[casino]

Now we're getting somewhere. Finally.

 

Belief in God isnt so easy as you can just say it and thats that. Belief in God is about having faith in something unseen. Yeah, sure you go about believing in things only seen but God wants a stricter belief when it comes to believing in Him. 

 

And as for all the rest of creation being at mankind's service, well its said that God made man in his own image. So naturally he'd give dominion to the top species. Thats not to say we can go about miss treating other animals...making angora jumpers the way the Chinese do....

 

As for wasting years praying in church, well you don't know what those people prayed for or what they got. Its said that you should be careful what you pray for as you might get a surprising amount. 

 

So...Happy Christmas my non believing VX brotherin. God still loves you even though you take the mick. Enjoy Christmas. If you can go have a nose at a manger and crib (if you can find one) and have a think about God becoming like us. Cause thats what Christmas is really about.

 

 

Here endeth todays lesson.  

 

 

 

 

 

Like I said. St Hand, The Lord he works in mysterious ways. All hours of the day and night. So when youre hitting the bottle....I do too...Vodka...He's up watching and listening. And if you think all this NSA in the states was intrusive, you wanna get a handle on God and how much he knows. Edward - Prick- Snowden, Snitcher - on - High knows nowt compared with the amount of private stuff God knows.   Im sure he knows how upset and angry with all thats happened.   As for the Dinosaurs and bleeding buzzing Mozzies, well my 2p worth/opinion would be that they dont exist as God values mankind way above them. I doubt they have souls.   Anway, St Hand, patron saint of Liquor, keep on keeping on, God knows where youre at.     ps...Wish hed send me another bottle of Bison Vodka for Christmas     Casino      

Nice one, When we get full discloser and are told the truth regarding all the alien races knocking about I will ask one to pop over to yours and put you in the picture regarding gods We seem to have a million times more proof of aliens than we do a god? Now then ten years back I saw a ufo and pictures of it in the paper latter, I never did see god all them years going to church. So which should I believe in, something I have seen with my own eyes or a myth?