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#41 speedyK

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 05:17 PM

Because they're trying to justify the expense to themselves ?


I doubt that they would so enthusiastic if it was only BS. Look at the posts they've done on this subject.

Does it matter if it leans ?


If a car is leaning as much as mine in the above pics then, when changing direction, it is less precise due to the less controlled weight transfer - particularly when rapid consecutive changes of direction are involved this will be a limiting factor to the speed attained (look at the Elk test Mercedes A Class debacle for a classic example of limiting suspension design). So, in a word, "Yes" – it matters to me that it leans.

Are you racing the car competitively ?


I've not actually raced wheel-to-wheel on a circuit, but have participated in timed events and I am driving competitively when I'm on a track like Hockenheim – even in an open session – that's part of the fun for me. I can't beat the 911 turbos, etc. on the straights, so need all the help I can get in the twisty bits! :D When I did the International Race Licence course at Hock., they were judging candidates on how quick they were too so, "Yes" – it does matter to me.

This sounds really negative and nasty but it does bug me that people feel the need to constantly replace and upgrade things on cars purely for the sake of it. Learn the car to it's limits first then start tweaking


IMO, people who put huge, heavy "impressive" but contra-productive wheels on their cars are the saddos – but if that's what "floats their boat", let them – no real harm done.

OTOH, any half-way enthusiastic driver who's had some track tuition will soon be able to determine the weak points of his driving and also of his car – i.e. "learn the car to its limits" as you said. You're right – learning to be precise, smooth and consistent is one thing – making the car better is quite another. But, if the car is better, then us non-Schumachers can still go faster without reaching the car's (higher) limits – that's only a natural desire, isn't it? And, with more experience, the new limits of the car should be reached. Then it's time to mod again! :lol: I would argue that, for a serious driver, these mods are to achieve a better result, not just "for the sake of it". I'll grant you that this limit is always the car's limit in the driver's hands ) and a competent professional in a stock car may well trounce an amateur in a highly modded version – but we are all blessed with different personal limits and just because we have reached our own limit, that doesn't mean we can't improve the car and still improve our lap times. All part of the fun!

As I say, I know from personal experience how frustrating it is when a 911 Turbo or Ferrari tip-toes around the corners at snail's pace only to leave you for dead on the straights – but no doubt they're having fun too in their own way. Everyone can do whatever they want with their car and, if you are serious about pushing yourself and the car, even on a fine car like the VX, upgrading the public road-biassed suspension should be worthwhile. I simply can't believe that all the Lotus and VX owners who've upgraded are kidding themselves.

#42 ShinyAndy

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 05:38 PM

All you points are indeed valid and I'm not really knocking people that do it and if you're using the car in timed events then thumbsup but:

then us non-Schumachers can still go faster without reaching the car's (higher) limits – that's only a natural desire, isn't it?


I don't agree with, surely it's better to find the limit early on.. when you are comfortable with the car on the limit then you are able to drive the car properly. If you keep moving the goalposts and increasing that limit without ever finding it all you are doing is increasing the speed at which the inevitable will occur.

I've seen a fair few offs on track in my time and often it's the people with "more money than sense" that have done exactly as you've said and poured money into a car to improve it's ability without actually learning how to drive. Ultimately that comes around and bites them sooner rather than later. Yet another example of this is in motorsport.. if you watch a lesser known race series that is often populated with rich kids watch how often they spin, they have precious little car control when things go a bit pear shaped.

The most fun I've ever had on track is often in a low limit, cheap, slow, bad handling car. Suppose we all want different things and "fun" is relative, but for me fun is about getting the best out of whatever I happen to be driving at the time

#43 ShinyAndy

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 05:41 PM

Oh and I guess the lack of being able to do lap-times on track in the UK without having a race licence and competing takes away the reasoning for doing it all to improve your times

#44 speedyK

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 06:36 PM

Oh and I guess the lack of being able to do lap-times on track in the UK without having a race licence and competing takes away the reasoning for doing it all to improve your times .


Don't know that a lot of UK trackers would agree :P Boys just want to have fun!

If you keep moving the goalposts and increasing that limit without ever finding it all you are doing is increasing the speed at which the inevitable will occur.

I'm sure we're both of the same opinion on this one :)

If you look again, you'll see that I suggest finding the limits then modding the car. This makes it quicker and, as I said, "And, with more experience, the new limits of the car should be reached." I mean, of course, that the same procedure should then be repeated, namely you learn the new limits before you mod it again.

I agree there are some "more-money-than-sense" types but, in my experience, most of these poor drivers in supercars do know their own (low) limits and drive overcautiously in the twisties – only floor it on the straights and start backing off ages before the braking point. They rarely come to harm. The exception was a 19yr-old at Hock. with me in 2002 – trying to run before he could walk. One-and-a-half days of circuit training and then off we go. Virtually straight away he ran wide ahead of me. Next I know, he's in the concrete wall at the inside of Turn 1. Rear stepped out and he didn't correct at all! :o :blink: It was a write off. He was back in 2003 with an identical car... but had learned a little more car control by then...

Well off topic now! :D Point is I agree modding is not always rational, but then how rational is a hobby like base jumping? :wacko: I prefer to upgrade suspension any day! :lol:

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#45 ShinyAndy

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 06:52 PM

Don't know that a lot of UK trackers would agree :P Boys just want to have fun!


Unfortunately all you do by timing at a trackday is invalidate everyone elses insurance and it just takes one post on a forum and someones claim could go out the window. You are also invalidating the trackday organisers liability insurance :(

Tis a big no, no I'm afraid and you'll normally get sent home tail between legs if you get caught doing it

namely you learn the new limits before you mod it again


Wise words indeed, unfortunately not everyone shares this philosophy and they're the ones you don't want to share a track with !

#46 Ducati996Senna

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 08:13 PM

If you go to the SELOC site they will tell you who is the cheapest, Can't remeber who it was but its around £540

#47 speedyK

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Posted 24 August 2004 - 08:38 PM

Unfortunately all you do by timing at a trackday is invalidate everyone elses insurance and it just takes one post on a forum and someones claim could go out the window. You are also invalidating the trackday organisers liability insurance :(

I think everyone is aware of that.

My reply ("Don't know that a lot of UK trackers would agree :P Boys just want to have fun!") that you quote was in reply to this phrase of yours:

"Oh and I guess the lack of being able to do lap-times on track in the UK without having a race licence and competing takes away the reasoning for doing it all to improve your times ."

What I am saying is not that you have to time to have fun, but quite the opposite!!! Any normal person will be aware if they are overtaking or being overtaken – the more modded the car, the more chance of being the one doing the overtaking! You don't need a chronograph to work that out!

:D

#48 Thorney

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 05:24 AM

:rolleyes: This old chestnut again :) Ignore Shiny, his opinion is that standard suspension on an NA is very good and nigh on perfect for the road is correct, as far as road settings for the VXT the same applies. The standard Bilstein kit is excellent quality and shouldn't just be thrown away. However, Shiny's view is that he wants to have a comfortable road car and some fun on track and he'd rather use road tyres and road suspension to get that. If he didn't like Nitrons why does he keep asking me for a discount on some :lol: There is a lot to be said for driving a car on standard road tyres on track, its fun but most people want that little bit more. You can't look at these things in isolation. Standard suspension for the VXT is way way too soft for track work (less so for the NA) so if you track your car I guarrantee you will be looking for an upgrade after 1 passenger ride with someone with Nitrons on. This effect is exagerated if you add VXR wheels/Yokohamas. The yokos allow a lot more grip and with standard suspension on a track you're going to show up the roll on the standard set up even quicker. I'm pretty sure all of those people who get yoko's and track their car will be posting about upgraded suspension after their first track day ;) On the road I doubt it'll make much difference. I was chatting to Sinclaires at Rockingham yesterday and whilst I agree with them that standard kit is good they will be the first to agree that a set of Nitrons (or whatever) will enhance the track behaviour of the car. Oh, and Sinclaires are a buiness like any other, there is little profit in Nitrons for them (lots more on Spax) so they're not exaclty being angelic on their comments. ;) IMO this is a summary: VX220 NA Lighter car means its road set up 'feels' firmer than a VXT and is on the firm side of good for the road. This means on track it is better suited. Standard road rubber and standard suspension will be fine. Add yoko's and you'll start to see issues arise as conrering speeds get higher and the need for firmer, adjustable suspension will increase. VXT Heavier car means harder suspension but feels softer on the road due to softer damping. IMO its been under damped which means the track work suffers. I reckon I'd be quicker in a standard NA than a standard VXT on track for this reason. On the road it means the set up is nigh perfect but it is more heavily compromised on the track, hence the need for upgraded suspension. Add on Yoko's and this will be hugely affected. Summary If you have an NA and track your car, run standard rubber and still use it everyday then upgraded suspension is not a 'must'. If you add yoko's (which must mean you track your car quite a lot) then you'll soon need them. If you have a VXT and track your car you'll want them sooner rather than later, add Yoko's and it will be a lot sooner still. Your current choice is either Nitrons or Spax. Without wanting to be too partisan (I sell Nitrons in the shop and helped develop them). The Spax are cheaper but will need re-builds more often due to dual tube design. Nitrons are mono tube therefore are more resilient but they are more expensive. There are also Ohlins (as used on the VXR) which are 3 way adjustable but similar in build type to the Nitrons and are excellent but bloody expansive. Finally, bear in mind that the whole issue of suspension is subjective. What works for one person maybe completely different for another. Thats the beauty of adjustable suspension, you can set it how you want it. Don't buy it because you feel you have to, buy it if you think you'll need it. Have a passenger ride in someone elses car to feel it (I think I've sold almost every Nitron kit through this, the same goes for the Bilstein kit I have on the M3) as people get out and can't believe the mid corner grip (with yokos) but its not for everyone and if my car never went on track I doubt I'd bother.

#49 Whiteboy

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 07:43 AM

thumbsup , the more I track my car the more I want nitrons :D :D

#50 SPLAM

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 07:58 AM

Well i have bought the VXR setup i.e wheels/tyres and no i haven't done a track day yet, i will hopefully do some driver training first in the not to distant future And when i am feeling a little more confident in my own abilities i will move on to trackdays(not that i think i'm a bad driver because i am infact a complete girl on track :unsure: ) Anyway a van has just dropped the wheels off, better go and sign for them Imnotworthy

#51 SPLAM

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 08:00 AM

How did someone edit my post when i was writing it. Thorney or Shiny :9mm: :beat: :lol: :lol: :lol: Thorney Git :lol:

Edited by SamH, 25 August 2004 - 08:00 AM.


#52 SPLAM

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 08:11 AM

thumbsup Bring back the wanking smilie.

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Edited by SamH, 25 August 2004 - 08:12 AM.


#53 Whiteboy

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 08:12 AM

thumbsup :D

#54 SPLAM

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 08:16 AM

Right now the weight 10.8 rear 10.8 front Does that seem quite heavy :blink:

#55 Marco Polo

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 08:42 AM

Right now the weight

10.8 rear
10.8 front

Does that seem quite heavy :blink:

Same weight front and rear ?!?

:blink:

#56 Thorney

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 08:43 AM

How did someone edit my post when i was writing it.

Thorney or Shiny :9mm: :beat:



:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thorney Git :lol:

Not me mate....didn't touch it.

#57 Ratspants

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 08:56 AM

PHWOOOOOAAAARRRRRRR!!!!!!!!!! Step 1: Collect Underpants Step 3: Make Profit Step 4: Buy VXR wheels :) Can't wait to see them on your car! Ben

#58 ShinyAndy

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 09:27 AM

How did someone edit my post when i was writing it.

Thorney or Shiny :9mm: :beat:



:lol: :lol: :lol:

Thorney Git :lol:

Nor me.. been in meetings all morning

#59 cheeky_chops

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 09:32 AM

Are you sure about the weight and your scales?? Seems to be v weighty on the front for a 16"

Copied this from a thread earlier in the year....

N/A stock front 9.8kg, offset 38mm Rim withstands 250kg
N/A stock rear 11.6kg, offset 41mm Rim withstands 350kg

VXT stock front ?kg,
VXT stock rear ?kg

VXR Speedlines 5-spoke front ?kg,
VXR Speedlines 5-spoke rear ?kg

Exige S1Rimstock Lotus Sport (4-spoke) 7x16" ?kg
Exige S1Rimstock Lotus Sport (4-spoke) 8.5x17" ?kg

Steinmetz ST3 5-twin-spoke 7x16" front ca. 8kg, + 20mm spacer
Steinmetz ST3 5-twin-spoke 7.5x17" rear ca.10kg + 5mm spacer

Speedline (Turini) Multi-spokes ?x16" front 7kg,
Speedline (Turini) Multi-spokes ?x17" rear 7.3kg

Toora front 6.5x16" 8kg (no spacers needed)
Toora rear 7.5x17" 9kg (no spacers needed)

OZ Superleggera front 7x16" 6.2 kg Rim withstands 650kg, offset 35mm and not correct PCD (! – 112 (Mercedes) not 110 (Opel) so needs "wobbly bolts"
OZ Superleggera rear 8x17" 7.4kg Rim withstands 650kg, offset 35mm and not correct PCD (! – 112 (Mercedes) not 110 (Opel) so needs "wobbly bolts"



#60 garyk220

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Posted 25 August 2004 - 09:36 AM

Right now the weight

10.8 rear
10.8 front

Does that seem quite heavy :blink:

It does. I've not weighed the 4-stud Turinis, but both the 16" and 17" have 7kg stamped on them. 17" is a little lighter than the 16" due to being 'flow-formed'... whatever that means.




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