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The Referendum - In Or Out


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#21 Harry Hornet

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 09:41 PM

 

 

I would vote to stay in and and have the Euro as our currency. That would make me better off as I go to Europe for a month every year.

 

Ian ..how would being in the Euro make you better off as you visit for 4 weeks a year.....dont understand

 

..do you propose to be paid in Euros at the current rate as well, therefor effectively negating any exchange rate wins you get at the moment..and when we went to the Euro you would be paid around 25% less..

 

I know with all my Greece trips Im well better of with having the pound...when the exchange rate is good..like now..


Edited by Harry Hornet, 04 February 2016 - 09:42 PM.


#22 Tony H

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 09:47 PM

I don't think the UK will be different in any real sense in or out. I expect remain will win 60/40. If I vote, I will vote leave.

#23 WrightStuff

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 10:38 PM

Out.

£33million per day net poured into an unelected unaccountable organisation that has already been mentioned; is corrupt and can't balance the books.

That money could do a lot of good in the UK.

Not having control of our own borders is just insanity and a recipe for disaster.



#24 ianrm

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Posted 04 February 2016 - 11:17 PM

 

 

 

I would vote to stay in and and have the Euro as our currency. That would make me better off as I go to Europe for a month every year.

 

Ian ..how would being in the Euro make you better off as you visit for 4 weeks a year.....dont understand

 

..do you propose to be paid in Euros at the current rate as well, therefor effectively negating any exchange rate wins you get at the moment..and when we went to the Euro you would be paid around 25% less..

 

I know with all my Greece trips Im well better of with having the pound...when the exchange rate is good..like now..

 

 

 

It was just a flippant comment really, hoped that if we used Euros I wouldn't get charged for cash point withdrawls.



#25 Crunchie

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 12:32 AM

 

 

 

 

I would vote to stay in and and have the Euro as our currency. That would make me better off as I go to Europe for a month every year.

 

Ian ..how would being in the Euro make you better off as you visit for 4 weeks a year.....dont understand

 

..do you propose to be paid in Euros at the current rate as well, therefor effectively negating any exchange rate wins you get at the moment..and when we went to the Euro you would be paid around 25% less..

 

I know with all my Greece trips Im well better of with having the pound...when the exchange rate is good..like now..

 

 

 

It was just a flippant comment really, hoped that if we used Euros I wouldn't get charged for cash point withdrawls.

 

 

The beauty of democracy is that your vote is worth the same as mine, yet you don't care enough to even try and understand the issues at stake. Like most elections, I expect the result will be swung by the uneducated who are sold scare stories about how awful the other side is. This is why elections are great big sales programs and also why most people are put off. They say they want to understand the real issues but do nothing to read around the subject and hence suffer the bafflement of spin from politicians who are people with alternate vested interests.

Its all too sad to contemplate.  



#26 A.C.oral

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 12:47 AM

As above ^ I'd rather leave even if we lose on the financials/GDP. It's a shame though cause we have benefited on so many other levels.

#27 Sammy

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 08:02 AM

 

It was just a flippant comment really, hoped that if we used Euros I wouldn't get charged for cash point withdrawls.

 

 

Here you go: Fee free, VISA rate cash withdrawals. http://www.nationwid...es-and-benefits



#28 siztenboots

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 10:05 AM

its a out vote here

 

out of EU and EEA , ie. same as Switzerland 



#29 christhegasman

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 11:23 AM

I don't think the UK will be different in any real sense in or out. I expect remain will win 60/40. If I vote, I will vote leave.

If it ever happens and you have a preference use your vote mate lets get out 😀

#30 oblomov

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:15 PM

 

The beauty of democracy is that your vote is worth the same as mine, yet you don't care enough to even try and understand the issues at stake. Like most elections, I expect the result will be swung by the uneducated who are sold scare stories about how awful the other side is. This is why elections are great big sales programs and also why most people are put off. They say they want to understand the real issues but do nothing to read around the subject and hence suffer the bafflement of spin from politicians who are people with alternate vested interests.

Its all too sad to contemplate.  

 

Seeing as you're accusing people not caring enough, let me educate you on this misinformed idea you have about 'beautiful democracy and what it actually is, and, ask why you don't care enough about democracy to take the time to understand what it is your talking about.

 

The 'democracy' you speak of is a myth. We live in a country that espouses democracy; which allows one man one vote and then perverts that principle through a corrupt and outdated electoral system which favours in a number of ways the two big parties, Labour and Conservative. The first main obstacle to a true democracy is the lack proportional representation. As it stands we have electoral 'areas' that historically the two parties have manipulated to their own ends in order to secure representatives in parliament. What this means is that electoral percentage wise, no governing party ever has a particularly good mandate to govern. Very often a government is dictating UK policy with mandate of around 30% of the population; that's hardly 'democracy' by any stretch of the imagination. These parties don't want to give you true democracy through proportional representation because then they would lose control and not be able to dominate parliament whilst governing without a proper mandate.

 

Parliament is an outdated; still observing rules and rituals that were relevant 100 years ago but not today. It's anachronistic and badly in need of drastic overhaul if we are to see anything resembling true democracy. The party whip is a system whereby 'enforcers' either offer inducements or even threaten other party members to vote according to official party policy. That is to say, MPs are not allowed to vote according to conscience but have to comply with party policy, or else, more 'democracy' in action. In a true democracy every MP would be allowed to vote with their conscience on every vote. Basically this 'democratic' system as practised in parliament is tribal. It will always be tribal but at least under proportional representation interests would be served to other than the two dominant parties, each of which is as bad as the other.

 

Then there are the lobbyists, what a can of worms that is as recent scandals and unfulfilled promises to rectify the problem have shown. Nothing very 'democratic' about a system that allows corporate greed to interfere and cause bias in the system.

 

Then there's the corruption of cronyism. A good example came to light in the last couple of days. Amazon has been pursued (for ten years!) for unpaid taxes and has just agreed to cough up £130 odd million, except we now find it's actually less than £100 million because £33 million relates to a separate matter (so more lies from Osborne and Cameron). So what so you do with these multi national tax avoiders that are screwing you and me over by not paying tax? Well, Amazon is a good example. With a UK revenue of £5.3 billion and £11.9 million tax ((0.002 of it's revenue) you punish one of it's directors, by making Doug Gurr, president of Amazon China a non executive director of Works and Pensions. He must be gutted.

 

Returning to 'democracy in action'. Recently there was a furore about the fact that the House of Lords (don't get me started on what an elitist and anachronistic institution that is) voted against a government bill which forced it to be returned to the commons for amendment. There was big talk of curbing the powers of the Lords. What most people are not aware of is that there are certain established protocols for introducing major legislation change, but this government, not satisfied with that, and because of it's slim majority, has been subverting these established procedures in order to push/rush unpopular legislation through parliament in a decidedly undemocratic way. This resulted in a slap on the wrist from the House of Lords which the government didn't like.

 

This is your “beautiful democracy” in action.  So what exactly is the value of your vote and mine in this miasmic mess?

 



#31 Ormes

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 02:31 PM

I am undecided as I am only informed by the news which means I am probably ill-informed.

 

My take so far...

 

What we want from europe... free trade

What we don't want from europe... absolutely everything else that being in europe actually means

 

I would vote out as long as the economy wasn't adversly affected.

 

 



#32 Harry Hornet

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 04:10 PM

...all very informative by those that have posted...... ......I am sure this will run and run..

 

..unlike the YES/No vote in Scotland where the final outcome was and probably would be even closer in the future..it would appear that the early .org (gallop) poll is nearly a unanimous Out vote..... this has surprised me and apart from the free trade comments I dont see any other reasoned reason to stay in...

 

..even this is can be pulled apart when EU countries should import a percentage of the goods by default. e.g Greece are forced to import veg and fruit when they have too much home grown already!,

 

.. back in 1973 it was thought EU would be good thing (me being one of them)...not so sure now.....suppose we just have to wait for the Red Tops to show their allegiance for their readers to follow as to how close the end vote would be...!



#33 G-Bob

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 04:26 PM

If we get out we can then pick the most suitable emissions swizzle for our cars etc. Also if we get out, the jocks will fcuk off and stop moaning about evil opressive London, but get to moan about evil oppressive Brussels :lol:

 

 

When the referendum was happening, everyone was going on about how Scotland wouldn't be part of the EU and how it was the worst thing ever if they didn't get in.

 

In reality this was just more bullshit and they didn't even want in themselves.



#34 GaryK

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 05:53 PM

More than 90% of my business is overseas. I can't begin to imagine what trading would be like if the EU didn't exist and every one of those countries required different forms, different customs declarations, different import duty processes etc. My company would almost certainly no longer be viable if the UK left the EU.
 
My in-laws have retired to Portugal. My brother's wife is Portuguese and lives and works over here. My wife is a Francophile and wants us to move to the South of France one day. I suspect the 1 million+ Brits living in Spain can appreciate that. 
 
Because I fly within the EU so much for work, typically 15+ trips a year, I appreciate the advantages being a member of the EU gives me:
 
* I don't have to get a bloody visa every time I enter another European country (anyone who has to travel to China will appreciate this!).
* I have guaranteed access to state health services across the EU.
* I can hire cars easily anywhere in the EU thanks to the standardised European driving license.
* Calls home are significantly cheaper than they were even 5 years ago since the EU clamped down on ridiculous roaming charges.
* It's incredible how much easier and cheaper flying has become thanks to airline deregulation across the EU.
 
Also, from having spent a fair amount of time in hospitals in recent years, I can't see how the NHS would function without migrants. There was research a couple of years ago that had calculated the net benefit to the coffers of migration was in the order of 4bn a year. Despite what the Sun and Mail would have us believe, we don't pay out especially high amounts in benefits compared to other EU countries and don't take on uniquely high numbers of migrants. 
 
Comments about the health service being knackered has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with our own government's relentless privatisation and cuts.
 
A big pro-EU vote from me  :P


#35 WrightStuff

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 06:09 PM

Fair points. I can see how you, personally would vote to stay in.

On the point regarding immigration...nobody is suggesting a closed door policy I think. I am talking about a partially open door but on our own terms.

We cannot have that at the moment because we are bound by EU free movement of workers regs.

If we need migrants to staff the nhs they will be allowed in....and the nhs might be better funded because we won't be paying EU membership fees anymore.

 

Last time I travelled to the US on holiday I completed a visa that took 5 mins to to online and cost £10. Thats the worst its going to get for us travelling to other european countries if we exit the EU. We bring a ton of tourist money to greece, spain, portugal etc they are not going to make it hard for us to go there.

 



#36 Harry Hornet

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 09:06 PM

 

More than 90% of my business is overseas. I can't begin to imagine what trading would be like if the EU didn't exist and every one of those countries required different forms, different customs declarations, different import duty processes etc. My company would almost certainly no longer be viable if the UK left the EU.
 
My in-laws have retired to Portugal. My brother's wife is Portuguese and lives and works over here. My wife is a Francophile and wants us to move to the South of France one day. I suspect the 1 million+ Brits living in Spain can appreciate that. 
 
Because I fly within the EU so much for work, typically 15+ trips a year, I appreciate the advantages being a member of the EU gives me:
 
* I don't have to get a bloody visa every time I enter another European country (anyone who has to travel to China will appreciate this!).
* I have guaranteed access to state health services across the EU.
* I can hire cars easily anywhere in the EU thanks to the standardised European driving license.
* Calls home are significantly cheaper than they were even 5 years ago since the EU clamped down on ridiculous roaming charges.
* It's incredible how much easier and cheaper flying has become thanks to airline deregulation across the EU.
 
Also, from having spent a fair amount of time in hospitals in recent years, I can't see how the NHS would function without migrants. There was research a couple of years ago that had calculated the net benefit to the coffers of migration was in the order of 4bn a year. Despite what the Sun and Mail would have us believe, we don't pay out especially high amounts in benefits compared to other EU countries and don't take on uniquely high numbers of migrants. 
 
Comments about the health service being knackered has nothing to do with the EU and everything to do with our own government's relentless privatisation and cuts.
 
A big pro-EU vote from me  :P

 

 

Gary

 

Really interesting points..

 

I used to do alot of European work as well, self employed. Clients though only wished to pay in Euros, and declare to tax man in their appropriatte country. Hence i stopped working abroad a I ws getting taxed twice without causing alot of paperwork

 

I doubt if we left EU countries would stop Uk citizens travelling or moving abroad, money talks and if you didnt have any they wouldnt want you anyway..hence many peoples arguments about accepting anyone into UK.

 

The NHS was staffed by non EU people before the EU so no change there/

 

Your good point is being able to use NHS in other counties relatively free, the only trouble is EU state NHS isnt the same as ours across all EU states..e.g. Greece, great surgeons but things like food and nursing family and friends ensure you are washed and fed each day

 

Be warned there is a real strong under current in those countries that have taken on large numbers of migrants..it could turn very nasty very quickly..whose fault..our bloddy own in thinking regimes were bad when in fact they held unstable counties together..but I digress  (sorry)

 

I also agree , we (the UK) should be very wary of going to far down the USA route and privatise everything in sight...just what was wrong with the majority of local public services ..smaller schools, cottage hospitals..it seems big is good, where as big means cuts!

 

Would out mean a change to this ..probably not, but then Yes would mean a Soviet Union type EU eventually..and we all know where that ended up..breaking up and everyone hating each other..  



#37 ianrm

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Posted 05 February 2016 - 11:22 PM

 

 

 

 

 

I would vote to stay in and and have the Euro as our currency. That would make me better off as I go to Europe for a month every year.

 

Ian ..how would being in the Euro make you better off as you visit for 4 weeks a year.....dont understand

 

..do you propose to be paid in Euros at the current rate as well, therefor effectively negating any exchange rate wins you get at the moment..and when we went to the Euro you would be paid around 25% less..

 

I know with all my Greece trips Im well better of with having the pound...when the exchange rate is good..like now..

 

 

 

It was just a flippant comment really, hoped that if we used Euros I wouldn't get charged for cash point withdrawls.

 

 

The beauty of democracy is that your vote is worth the same as mine, yet you don't care enough to even try and understand the issues at stake. Like most elections, I expect the result will be swung by the uneducated who are sold scare stories about how awful the other side is. This is why elections are great big sales programs and also why most people are put off. They say they want to understand the real issues but do nothing to read around the subject and hence suffer the bafflement of spin from politicians who are people with alternate vested interests.

Its all too sad to contemplate.  

 

 

 

Rightly or wrongly I choose not to vote in any elections, local or national since John Major came into power I have not voted.

 

I have neither the inclination or time to understand the issues at stake.

 

I have lived through a few different parties being in power and none have dramatically affected the way I lead my life. So I shall just carry on trying to enjoy life without letting the world of politics affect me. 

 

 

 



#38 Madmitch

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:38 AM

We have lived in France for almost 15 years now.  The wondrous UK government withdraws all voting rights from it's UK citizens living abroad, including in the EU, when they have been out of the UK for 15 years so we will loose all our voting rights this autumn.  As we are not French we cannot vote in the national French elections so we'll be totally disenfranchised!  How can that happen in the 21st century?  People died for the right to vote an yet we will loose ours for no reason at all.  We have no criminal record, still pay tax in the UK as well as France, and still receive our pensions from the UK.  I have emailed Cameron but never even got a reply.  Our great democratic system is just as slippery as all the others so lets not put ourselves on a pedestal as something special to protected from the ghastly foreigners.

 

Next thing, we do about 44% of all our trade with the EU.  If we leave then we will be faced with massive additional costs to trade into Europe, as well as all their trade barriers.  Our old trading partners from the old Commonwealth have long since gone elsewhere, Australia and New Zealand trade mostly with places like Japan, they won't suddenly come back to us, and America has always been quick to start a trade war whenever they felt their interest were threatened.  Don't imagine we will be well off out, we won't be.  Every household will feel the pinch and it will only get worse, not better.  Where will all the manufacturers like Nissan and Toyota who came to the UK to trade into the EU, where will they go, to Europe presumably as it will be too expensive to stay in the UK.  Will London remain the great financial centre it has become, maybe but lots of other places want to take over the crown.  Take nothing for granted, nobody owes us a living.

 

Next thing, as has already been mentioned, immigrants generate more than they cost, that is fact.  We take far fewer then many other, poorer, countries.  Let's not confuse keeping out criminals and terrorists with helping people who are fleeing the worst humanitarian horror in decades. 

 

And the NHS....  We had friends to dinner on Wednesday, all of whom except one work, or worked, in the NHS.  We sat into the small hours talking about it and one thing that came to dominate the conversation was waste.  Apparently many elderly are prescribed Codeine but won't take it as it makes them feel drowsy.  They ask for it to be taken off their prescriptions but every month another load arrives, one old lady was being given 1,000 pills a month which all have to be destroyed as they cannot be taken back and reissued..........WHAAAT!!  Just sorting out the mindless overprescribing would save millions on it's own. 

 

If I'm allowed to vote I will vote to stay in, we can be a world class major player in the EU but not out of it. 



#39 christhegasman

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:46 AM

If you live in France being in is probably better for you as they seem to be involved in making the rules and they don't adhere to them Whilst some migrant workers in the uk do help too many migrants come here with the intention of bleeding us dry , and are succeeding . We won't need migrant workers in the nhs when we have no nhs ? We have been in the eu a while now and have not yet become a major player We have become a major dumping ground for everything the rest of Europe doesn't want If you choose to live in France why should you be allowed to vote on what happens over here you have made your choice and good luck if you don't like what the population of this country decide don't come back 😀 Just my opinion

Edited by christhegasman, 06 February 2016 - 08:55 AM.


#40 stu8v

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 08:48 AM

Imho you don't deserve to vote. For what ever reasons you choose to live your life elsewhere so why should you have an input? Although you do have some valid points.




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