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The Referendum - In Or Out


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#41 GiGo

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:08 AM

I'll vote to leave.

 

We have too many migrants in this country and that is the reason I would vote to get out.

 

What really needs to be done is have a system like Australia, "If you've got what we want then your in, if not, p*ss off."

 

As for the benefits of staying in the EU then we should no question about it.  But because we have to have open borders, which is what the 90% think being in the EU is about, then the vote will be 'get out'.

 

There needs to be a third and forth options rather than YES or NO



#42 christhegasman

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:16 AM

I'll vote to leave.   We have too many migrants in this country and that is the reason I would vote to get out.   What really needs to be done is have a system like Australia, "If you've got what we want then your in, if not, p*ss off."   As for the benefits of staying in the EU then we should no question about it.  But because we have to have open borders, which is what the 90% think being in the EU is about, then the vote will be 'get out'.   There needs to be a third and forth options rather than YES or NO

Well said that man😀

#43 Madmitch

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 09:37 AM

It is worth pointing out that the UK willingly signed up to the principal of free movement within the EU for EU citizens so I am doing nothing wrong or illegal by choosing to live in another member state.  The UK government continues to tax me at source despite there being a double taxation treaty in force to stop people like me being taxed twice.  The winter fuel allowance was withdrawn because the UK government said we lived in a warmer place but it was reinstated when the EU Court pointed out that the Dept of Work and Pensions had included French Guyana in the calculations without which mainland France is actually colder, they are now going to remove it anyway!!  There are lots of other little indignities that the UK govt heap upon people like me and I can live with all that but what really gets up my nose is the removal of voting rights.  No other country in the EU, nor in the civilised world, does this to it citizens.  The right to vote is entrenched in the most basic rights of any citizen in every civilised democracy.  Only places like North Korea think otherwise.  To tax me AND cancel my vote is the ultimate indignity.


Edited by Madmitch, 06 February 2016 - 09:40 AM.


#44 Madmitch

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:15 AM

I'm getting carried away and drifting off the topic!

 

I'll vote to stay in, not because I live in France but because that will be best for Britain.  Leaving will not stop immigrants entering the UK, it will not make us better off, it will not increase our influence on the world stage, it will not add to our trade or reduce our deficit, in fact it will not make anything better and quite a few things will be worse.  Yes, we will be able to deport some unwanted people more easily, change some laws without reference to Europe but what effect will that have in reality, little or none.



#45 christhegasman

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 11:35 AM

Well bring in has not made things better either hence the vote We voted to join a small European group of reasonable productive countries And were promised a better life That has not delivered for the majority if working families also we didn't only get countries to trade with we now have countries who offer nothing and take everything Anyway thought you couldn't vote ? 😊

Edited by christhegasman, 06 February 2016 - 11:36 AM.


#46 Madmitch

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 12:02 PM

Well bring in has not made things better either hence the vote We voted to join a small European group of reasonable productive countries And were promised a better life That has not delivered for the majority if working families also we didn't only get countries to trade with we now have countries who offer nothing and take everything Anyway thought you couldn't vote ? 😊

 

We loose our vote in October so If the referendum is this summer we shall still be able to vote in that, not that it will make one iota of difference! 



#47 Crunchie

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Posted 06 February 2016 - 01:11 PM

 

 

The beauty of democracy is that your vote is worth the same as mine, yet you don't care enough to even try and understand the issues at stake. Like most elections, I expect the result will be swung by the uneducated who are sold scare stories about how awful the other side is. This is why elections are great big sales programs and also why most people are put off. They say they want to understand the real issues but do nothing to read around the subject and hence suffer the bafflement of spin from politicians who are people with alternate vested interests.

Its all too sad to contemplate.  

 

Seeing as you're accusing people not caring enough, let me educate you on this misinformed idea you have about 'beautiful democracy and what it actually is, and, ask why you don't care enough about democracy to take the time to understand what it is your talking about.

 

The 'democracy' you speak of is a myth. We live in a country that espouses democracy; which allows one man one vote and then perverts that principle through a corrupt and outdated electoral system which favours in a number of ways the two big parties, Labour and Conservative. The first main obstacle to a true democracy is the lack proportional representation. As it stands we have electoral 'areas' that historically the two parties have manipulated to their own ends in order to secure representatives in parliament. What this means is that electoral percentage wise, no governing party ever has a particularly good mandate to govern. Very often a government is dictating UK policy with mandate of around 30% of the population; that's hardly 'democracy' by any stretch of the imagination. These parties don't want to give you true democracy through proportional representation because then they would lose control and not be able to dominate parliament whilst governing without a proper mandate.

 

Parliament is an outdated; still observing rules and rituals that were relevant 100 years ago but not today. It's anachronistic and badly in need of drastic overhaul if we are to see anything resembling true democracy. The party whip is a system whereby 'enforcers' either offer inducements or even threaten other party members to vote according to official party policy. That is to say, MPs are not allowed to vote according to conscience but have to comply with party policy, or else, more 'democracy' in action. In a true democracy every MP would be allowed to vote with their conscience on every vote. Basically this 'democratic' system as practised in parliament is tribal. It will always be tribal but at least under proportional representation interests would be served to other than the two dominant parties, each of which is as bad as the other.

 

Then there are the lobbyists, what a can of worms that is as recent scandals and unfulfilled promises to rectify the problem have shown. Nothing very 'democratic' about a system that allows corporate greed to interfere and cause bias in the system.

 

Then there's the corruption of cronyism. A good example came to light in the last couple of days. Amazon has been pursued (for ten years!) for unpaid taxes and has just agreed to cough up £130 odd million, except we now find it's actually less than £100 million because £33 million relates to a separate matter (so more lies from Osborne and Cameron). So what so you do with these multi national tax avoiders that are screwing you and me over by not paying tax? Well, Amazon is a good example. With a UK revenue of £5.3 billion and £11.9 million tax ((0.002 of it's revenue) you punish one of it's directors, by making Doug Gurr, president of Amazon China a non executive director of Works and Pensions. He must be gutted.

 

Returning to 'democracy in action'. Recently there was a furore about the fact that the House of Lords (don't get me started on what an elitist and anachronistic institution that is) voted against a government bill which forced it to be returned to the commons for amendment. There was big talk of curbing the powers of the Lords. What most people are not aware of is that there are certain established protocols for introducing major legislation change, but this government, not satisfied with that, and because of it's slim majority, has been subverting these established procedures in order to push/rush unpopular legislation through parliament in a decidedly undemocratic way. This resulted in a slap on the wrist from the House of Lords which the government didn't like.

 

This is your “beautiful democracy” in action.  So what exactly is the value of your vote and mine in this miasmic mess?

 

I agree with all of the above completely. My beautiful democracy term was made with my tongue firmly in my cheek. However, I get far too carried away to write as eloquently as you have done, so I tend to keep my posts short and sweet. But thanks for your input


Edited by Crunchie, 06 February 2016 - 01:12 PM.


#48 oblomov

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Posted 08 February 2016 - 08:01 PM

 

I agree with all of the above completely. My beautiful democracy term was made with my tongue firmly in my cheek. However, I get far too carried away to write as eloquently as you have done, so I tend to keep my posts short and sweet. But thanks for your input

 

Tongue in cheek - Doh :beat:  That went well over my head. :lol:   This alleged 'democracy' crap they spout tends to irk me somewhat. :rolleyes:

 



#49 Ian59

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 06:37 PM

I noted that Cameron (this week) or one of the 'in' lobbyists stated that if we leave the EU, then the migrant  camps in Calais would end up here. Also, when Corbyn visited the camp and spouted we need to help the people there, the press forgot to give a balanced view. I have found a speech given by an elderly French woman who lives in Calais. She took part in a small demonstration of Calais townsfolk about the impact that the migrant camp and its people have had on the area.

  Please read the transcribed speech by this female that was done at the time of her speaking to the crowd. It certainly opens your eyes..............  

  • • Calais: The Truth about the “Jungle”

    FEBRUARY 10, 2016

    Last weekend, the former French Legion commander General Christian Piquemal was arrested by French police during an anti-invasion rally in Calais, France. Now, an ordinary resident of that town breaks the controlled media blackout of that rally, and what life is really like for people in Calais since the nonwhite invasion started.

    Below is a speech from a video of Calais resident Simone Héricourt’s account of the situation in Calais, given on Sunday, February 7, 2016 in Rungis in front of a patriotic audience. A full English transcript follows underneath.

    Well, here we are. Pierre introduced me. My name is Simone and I live in Calais. I am of Calaisian stock. My parents lived in Calais. Calais is my life. It’s where I grew up and I’ve always lived there. Calais used to be a very pleasant town. I used to love going on walks. We had tranquility and safety. There were always a lot of visitors, both in the summer and in the winter, even though God knows our summers are never that pleasant; the weather is never great here. But the place was alive. Some time ago refugees came to Sangatte. Sarkozy decided to shut down their squatting zone there, and the refugees arrived in Calais. At first, even I considered them unfortunate people, deprived of means and ill-informed, whom we could perhaps give some help.

    And I couldn’t tell you how it happened, but from one day to the next, we had thousands, thousands of migrants. Currently they number at 18,000 in what is called the Jungle. 18,000. It is horrible. They’ve downright made a city within the city. They’ve got a discotheque, businesses, schools, hairdressers… They even have… [pause] — I wouldn’t allow myself to say this, but I think you understand it concerns the needs of men. Of course. They’ve made streets. They’ve given names to these streets. They elected a mayor. [Audience expresses shock] Yes! The police cannot at all enter what they call the “Muslim neighborhood.” It’s forbidden. Up to that point, we perhaps might have been able to endure this. But we can’t endure the unendurable, when we see riots taking place during the night, every day, constantly. They turn up in the center of the town, numbering 2,000, 3,000, 4,000, all over the place. They smash cars with iron bars. They assault people; they even assault children. They rob and they rape. What we endure is unimaginable.

    They enter the homes of people, while people are at the dinner table, because they want to eat. They take what they want; sometimes they beat up the inhabitants. They steal what they want and smash what they can’t get. And when you defend yourself, the police get on your back [Audience expresses dismay].

    For a long time now the police refuse to register complaints. My own son got assaulted. He was out on a walk in the town center, listening to music on headphones. Someone tapped his shoulder and he turned around, thinking it would be a friend. Three “clandos” were facing him — excuse me, clandestines. He got hit on the head with an iron bar. My son is quite tough and managed to defend himself. So they got beat up. But then he heard noise on his side: thirty migrants were now going after him. Being bold but not suicidal, he fled. When I saw my son return home my thought was that they could have killed him. He isn’t alone. They assault kids on their way home from school, or on their way to school, to middle-school. They go so far as to get on school buses, with the kids.

    On January 23rd, they did a big riot in Calais. It was horrible. It lasted the whole afternoon and the whole evening. They went so far as to tag the statue of General De Gaulle. They wrote “Nik la France” on it [“Fuk France”, sic], with the ISIS flag underneath.What else can I tell you about what we endure? They demonstrate to protest the standards of the welcome they have received. But the more you give to them, the more they ask for. It’s never enough. Never, never.When we cross their paths, it’s always “give money”, “give phone.” And if you don’t give, you get beaten up. And don’t count on the police to help you. As I said, they don’t even register complaints anymore. When we want to demonstrate, the police get on our backs. When we get assaulted, they tell us at the police station: “What do you want us to say; they all look alike. There’s nothing we can do.” I promise that what I’m telling you is the truth.

    I used to love going to visit what I call my son’s tomb: the sea. I lost my son and we dispersed his ashes into the sea, in accordance with his wish.

    One evening I asked my husband to take me to my son’s tomb, because I needed it. This is something I can’t do anymore. Merely crossing the town center of Calais during the evening means exposing yourself to danger.

    As soon as it starts getting dark, it gets dangerous. I can’t go where I used to like to go anymore. It’s not possible anymore. I’m scared. And there are many of us like this in Calais.

    What I also don’t understand is the attitude of the Calaisians. Yesterday again there was a demonstration. There were perhaps ten people from Calais participating. Where were all the others? Fear does not steer us clear from danger. The Government has abandoned us. They’ve decided to doom Calais. If we from Calais don’t react to this, all the migrants in France will end up gathered here, and we’ll be done for; we’ll be dead. The Calaisians are like sheep. I don’t understand them.

    Yesterday I participated in this demonstration. I was in the middle of it, with my husband, with my son, with friends. General Piquemal was there [Long round of applause]. After what I witnessed yesterday, I could not sleep, because I kept reviewing those scenes in my mind. The television, radio, and newspapers haven’t said what happened there. We saw him get arrested and mistreated like a racaille [street thug]. The man is a French icon; he deserves the respect owed to his rank, and he got treated like a racaille. They manhandled him to the ground and a policeman placed his boot on his neck.We saw it happen; I promise as I stand before you. Then they picked him up and dragged him; his feet weren’t even touching the ground. And then they charged us of course.I was lucky, because my husband, in a clever move, took us behind the vans and the water guns of the CRS [riot police]. Otherwise they would have detained us and I’d still be in jail today.And what offense did I commit? I had come there. I had come to protest the massive and invasive immigration we are subjected to.

    Do you realize that local shops have lost between 40 percent and 60 percent of their business? Before this, Calais used to be thriving, lively, gay. Foreigners would always come during the summer vacation time, and during the end of the year festivities. Today, nothing is left of that. Nothing.

    The shops in the town center have shut down, one after the other. Calais is a dead city, because of the clandestines we have there. When they descend upon the town armed with iron bars and even Molotov cocktails… Yes, they were caught fabricating those… I don’t understand why they don’t get punished for that.

    Why do the police let them go so quickly, when they catch them? [Round of applause.] If we, the French, the Calaisians, step out of line, we immediately get detained and subjected to interrogation. We have no rights left. Let’s also talk about Natacha Bouchard. [The audience boos.] I call her the snail, because she has gotten fatter and fatter since she became mayor. She has done nothing for the inhabitants of Calais.

    She received millions of Euros of help destined to support the local economy. The first thing she did with that money was to build containers to house the migrants. And those containers did not even come from Calais, they came from Brittany.The only jobs she created in Calais, and I know this through a friend who was offered such a job, were fifty long-term positions to clean up the migrants’ refuse in the Jungle. Those are the jobs offered by Madame Bouchard. She has banned me from her Facebook page, so I can’t leave comments there anymore. She doesn’t like me. The feeling is mutual. [Audience laughing.]

    As Pierre said, I’m not an intellectual. I didn’t get a higher education. I lost my father at a young age and had to stop school early in order to help with the business.But that doesn’t mean I’m an idiot. I see what’s going on and I know what I’m talking about. We live under it every day.There’s been a new development recently: the No Border activists. They are the worst racaille on the face of the Earth. They are the ones inciting the clandestines to riot in Calais.It’s even worse than that. They post themselves across the town and coordinate riots using walkie-talkies.I’ve seen the CRS [riot police] give ground to the migrants. That made me weep. I felt this wasn’t normal. We’re at home. This is our country, our town. The migrants should have been the ones retreating, not the CRS.Why are they demonstrating? They want 2000 Euros pocket money per month. [Hilarity among the audience.] I don’t have that, personally. They want a car, and also a house, naturally. So let’s talk about housing. Madame Bouchard has expelled people in Calais from their homes because those were situated in the Dunes area, close to the Jungle.

    Indeed this proximity meant that they were being robbed and beaten on a regular basis. So she expelled them, even though they were paying their rent.

    I myself am being thrown out of my house next month. My house is being confiscated, even though we’ve always been honest people. It would be too long to explain. A court decided to sell the house, even though we’ve done nothing wrong. My husband is suffering from cancer, but that doesn’t change anything.

    The French must be crushed and thrown out, their property seized to make room for the racaille intent on colonizing us. [Round of applause.] The racaille, we are being told, will be a source of cultural enrichment for us. But I wonder where their cultural wealth is. If what we need is to wreck, destroy, steal, and rape, and this is the short version, well then the French are quite able to do this on their own. You just needed to ask us. [Round of applause.] I speak with my heart and my words. [Long round of applause.]


     
  •  

Edited by Ian59, 13 February 2016 - 06:38 PM.


#50 Sammy

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 06:48 PM

This is the video:

 

Her tale is absolutely shocking. :(



#51 Ian59

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 06:54 PM

Agreed, maybe all of the tree-hugging socialists should watch this. Then, if they still want to bring them over here, house them in their own constituencies. 



#52 Ian59

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 07:04 PM

Sadly, incidents involving migrants are happening in several western countries but, the Police and authorities have imposed a press blackout as (as one reporter stated) they (the authorities) do not want to be proven wrong by the electorate who voiced there concerns about the influx of migrants and their impact on the communities. In a large number of offences involving migrants , the Police have refused to do anything because they (and the authorities) don't want to upset them.     



#53 christhegasman

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Posted 13 February 2016 - 07:18 PM

Out out out 😊

#54 christhegasman

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Posted 20 February 2016 - 08:20 PM

Well I am in Oslo at the moment and it really doesn't seem to have done the Norwegians any harm staying away no scumbags No pissheads no fcuking vape shops no greggs Seems a nice place to be far better than the multicultural sh*t hole we have turned into

#55 ghand

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 12:02 PM

We have lived in France for almost 15 years now.  The wondrous UK government withdraws all voting rights from it's UK citizens living abroad, including in the EU, when they have been out of the UK for 15 years so we will loose all our voting rights this autumn.  As we are not French we cannot vote in the national French elections so we'll be totally disenfranchised!  How can that happen in the 21st century?  People died for the right to vote an yet we will loose ours for no reason at all.  We have no criminal record, still pay tax in the UK as well as France, and still receive our pensions from the UK.  I have emailed Cameron but never even got a reply.  Our great democratic system is just as slippery as all the others so lets not put ourselves on a pedestal as something special to protected from the ghastly foreigners.   Next thing, we do about 44% of all our trade with the EU.  If we leave then we will be faced with massive additional costs to trade into Europe, as well as all their trade barriers.  Our old trading partners from the old Commonwealth have long since gone elsewhere, Australia and New Zealand trade mostly with places like Japan, they won't suddenly come back to us, and America has always been quick to start a trade war whenever they felt their interest were threatened.  Don't imagine we will be well off out, we won't be.  Every household will feel the pinch and it will only get worse, not better.  Where will all the manufacturers like Nissan and Toyota who came to the UK to trade into the EU, where will they go, to Europe presumably as it will be too expensive to stay in the UK.  Will London remain the great financial centre it has become, maybe but lots of other places want to take over the crown.  Take nothing for granted, nobody owes us a living.   Next thing, as has already been mentioned, immigrants generate more than they cost, that is fact.  We take far fewer then many other, poorer, countries.  Let's not confuse keeping out criminals and terrorists with helping people who are fleeing the worst humanitarian horror in decades.    And the NHS....  We had friends to dinner on Wednesday, all of whom except one work, or worked, in the NHS.  We sat into the small hours talking about it and one thing that came to dominate the conversation was waste.  Apparently many elderly are prescribed Codeine but won't take it as it makes them feel drowsy.  They ask for it to be taken off their prescriptions but every month another load arrives, one old lady was being given 1,000 pills a month which all have to be destroyed as they cannot be taken back and reissued..........WHAAAT!!  Just sorting out the mindless overprescribing would save millions on it's own.    If I'm allowed to vote I will vote to stay in, we can be a world class major player in the EU but not out of it. 

I have just started emptying Jans mums house after her death. The amount of drugs was absolutely unbelievable. I took three bin bags full to the top to the chemist in one trip and we still have loads left,at least two carry bags full of unopened Ventalin sprays, hundreds of packs of Codeine, bottle after bottle and pack after pack of unused drugs. Nebulisers, hundreds of wound dressings and creams.Then the blister packs from more recent medication. Row after row of steroids, blood pressure pills, pain killers and all sorts of other crap stacked up in rows on the shelf. I was absolutely gob smacked by the amount. Thousands and thousands of pounds wasted on one old woman, the cost of this lot then the prescribing of it and delivery would be staggering and we wonder why the NHS is short of cash. I still can't believe the amount,

#56 Ormes

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 12:51 PM

Re: Migration, I see economic migration from outside of europe being the bigger issue than from within europe (with a caveat implied in my second paragraph), and not sure how we get over the current situation, whereby once they get here, they throw away their documents, and then ultimately, we cannot legally deport them to anywhere as we can't prove their origin.

 

My biggest issue with Europe is the member states.  To me, the single currency, closer integration, and free moment only works with countries of similar constitution and economic foundation.  As soon as you start to introduce countries such as Greece, Hungary etc., I think you are onto a loser, and really, even considering Turkey as a member state blows it out of the water for me... with its porous borders and links to terrorism etc.

 

As I stated previously in this thread:

 

What we want from europe... free trade

What we don't want from europe... absolutely everything else that being in europe actually means.

 

...and whilst I am detached from the detail, my observation is that China is not part of Europe, yet how many of the goods that you and every other "European" use every day come from China?... not being in Europe doesn't seem to do them any harm.

 

I am still in the "out" camp, but still feel uncomfortably removed from the real issues and really want to understand the full impact of both options before making a decision.


Edited by Ormes, 21 February 2016 - 12:54 PM.


#57 christhegasman

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 01:58 PM

Not sure us normal Brits will ever get the full facts All I see at the moment in the new deal is something about as binding as a bowl of prunes Which if we vote to stay in ( God help us ) as it sounds like any agreement is temporary not signed onto so can be removed at any time 😡 My guess would be the first meeting after 23 June should we stupidly stay in this corrupt non beneficial and expensive club

Edited by christhegasman, 21 February 2016 - 01:59 PM.


#58 JG

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 02:21 PM

I wonder if anyone in the next four months is going to set out an 'independent' (say, as independent as the ONS, which is as good as we''ll get) view as to the SWOTs of each option. 

 

The in campaign is going to be built on risk and fear. Worked for the Scotland 'No' Campaign. Not particularly positive though.

 

The out campaign is going to be built on change and pent-up resentment (a vote based on immigration for example). it has some challenges though. A disorganised campaign team and some personalities which the majority will not want to side with (Farage, carsewell and so on). 

 

I suspect, and it feels like, its a very well rehearsed stunt. Industry for example is barely registering the 'risk' of bexit. Is that because there genuinely isn't a risk to business with brexit, or is because its just very very unlikely?



#59 Ian59

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 05:54 PM

Boris has become part of the 'Leave EU' team. Blow for the pm. 



#60 Raptor

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Posted 21 February 2016 - 07:00 PM

Yes!  get in there Boris!






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