60 replies to this topic

[Ivor]

When if does start does it run ok without issue until you turn it off?

Yeah, it seems to run ok initially, but after two or three starts it just goes down hill till it won't even turn over.

Will it then jump start?

[Rosssco]

 

 

When if does start does it run ok without issue until you turn it off?

Yeah, it seems to run ok initially, but after two or three starts it just goes down hill till it won't even turn over.

Will it then jump start?

 

 

Nope. Tried that at the start. The issue is not (it seems) due to battery to starter wiring / connection, but on the starting and control side with suspected corrosion at fusebox etc. giving poor / weird voltages.

[FLD]

Could be weak terminals in the LoD plugs. They can be clean as a whistle but if the spring part inside is bent beack you get weird issues. Had it on mine when I first got it. Took months to pin it down.

[Rosssco]

Could be weak terminals in the LoD plugs. They can be clean as a whistle but if the spring part inside is bent beack you get weird issues. Had it on mine when I first got it. Took months to pin it down.

 

I have measured the LoD plug voltages and they seem ok appart from the ECU voltage (low - 7-9v). Have chnaged the complete engine loom, and that didnt seem to make much difference in terms of starting 

 

I was actually looking at changing the LoD connectors for some other type which might offer reduced issues!

[Zoobeef]

Is there 12v at fuse 8? Still 12v on that wire at the LOD connection? But only 8v at the wire by the time it gets to the ECU? Seems a pretty simple fault.

[ayresyy]

   Also worth bearing in mind that while you may still get a 'good' 12v reading on a terminal with a multi-meter where there is a possible poor connection, as soon as you try to pull any kind of current through that same connection the voltage can drop right off.

[Sutol]

I've had a problem with an eml due to the secondary O2 sensor. I had all the wiring, plugs earth points checked on my car. The ECU has been checked. I've had 4 O2 sensors and I still had the fault. It turns out that my car no longer likes Bosch sensors. Installed a vauxhall OEM one and problem gone. I mention it as it could be an issue with your car.

[FLD]

Could be weak terminals in the LoD plugs. They can be clean as a whistle but if the spring part inside is bent beack you get weird issues. Had it on mine when I first got it. Took months to pin it down.

 
I have measured the LoD plug voltages and they seem ok appart from the ECU voltage (low - 7-9v). Have chnaged the complete engine loom, and that didnt seem to make much difference in terms of starting 
 
I was actually looking at changing the LoD connectors for some other type which might offer reduced issues!

mine was very hit or miss. It would start one day and not the next. I didn't go to the trouble of measuring voltages etc at the time though. If you pull the plugs open and remove the yellow mesh part you can look in on the terminals. The female part is a square with a spring part inside. On mine the spring part had got weak and had pushed back resulting in an unreliable connection. I poked a pin in and bent it back to where it should be which works in the short term but not long term. You can get new terminals from vehicle wiring products. IIRC on mine theres a big pink/brown wire that was the worst. In the end I went to deutsch plugs and haven't had a problem since but this did plague me for a couple of years.

[Rosssco]

Is there 12v at fuse 8? Still 12v on that wire at the LOD connection? But only 8v at the wire by the time it gets to the ECU? Seems a pretty simple fault.

 

I'll need to check back, but I think so yeah. I wish it was that simple TBH! But been unable to resolve..

 

   Also worth bearing in mind that while you may still get a 'good' 12v reading on a terminal with a multi-meter where there is a possible poor connection, as soon as you try to pull any kind of current through that same connection the voltage can drop right off.

 

Yeah, well that's the things, could be a dodgy / corroded wire anywhere in the loom, hence why I'm considering fitting the complete new car loom.

 

I've had a problem with an eml due to the secondary O2 sensor. I had all the wiring, plugs earth points checked on my car. The ECU has been checked. I've had 4 O2 sensors and I still had the fault. It turns out that my car no longer likes Bosch sensors. Installed a vauxhall OEM one and problem gone. I mention it as it could be an issue with your car.

 

Could be, but the O2 sensor output in OBD-Tuner looks ok. One of the few sensors I haven't actually replaced!

[Rosssco]

 

 

Could be weak terminals in the LoD plugs. They can be clean as a whistle but if the spring part inside is bent beack you get weird issues. Had it on mine when I first got it. Took months to pin it down.

 
I have measured the LoD plug voltages and they seem ok appart from the ECU voltage (low - 7-9v). Have chnaged the complete engine loom, and that didnt seem to make much difference in terms of starting 
 
I was actually looking at changing the LoD connectors for some other type which might offer reduced issues!

 

mine was very hit or miss. It would start one day and not the next. I didn't go to the trouble of measuring voltages etc at the time though. If you pull the plugs open and remove the yellow mesh part you can look in on the terminals. The female part is a square with a spring part inside. On mine the spring part had got weak and had pushed back resulting in an unreliable connection. I poked a pin in and bent it back to where it should be which works in the short term but not long term. You can get new terminals from vehicle wiring products. IIRC on mine theres a big pink/brown wire that was the worst. In the end I went to deutsch plugs and haven't had a problem since but this did plague me for a couple of years.

 

 

I did remove the yellow mesh part, but unsure if that has made any difference.. 

 

Given I'm getting dodgy / low voltage readings at the fuse box, might be something in there. If I replace the full car loom, and I have replaced the engine loom, essentially I'll have replaced both sides of the LoD (X2 / X3) connectors..

[Zoobeef]

Do you have battery voltage on both sides at fuse 8?

What voltage do you have on the violet wire on pin 13 of plug x3?

You said on another post it was nothing? That's a straight piece of wire. I'm not sure why there is a difficulty? Temporarily put a new piece of wire in if need be. 10 minutes work.

 

[daggles]

Apologies if I'm off track but this sounds a bit familiar and if not it might help someone else who found themselves here.. I have posted some of this before but I had an interesting issue with the car randomly not turning over sometimes, usually after it had been started recently, that was a real bum cos I got to drive away from home and then couldn't get back. Leaving the car alone for an hour or 2 seemed to sort it out then it could be ok  for a couple of weeks. The other odd thing was the dash (instruments) occasionally made a squealing noise for a few mins and the car would often run a bit rough after starting. I occasionally trickle charge through the cig lighter socket (I'm sure someone will say that's bad but 14 years on the car is still fine and I'm still on my first bonnet release cable), the charger sometimes reported a battery error even though the battery voltage was looking ok at the terminals. 

 

Anyway to cut a long story short the charger message was the clue, the charger thought the battery was dud as it wasn't drawing any current, ergo the cig socket and the battery weren't connected anymore. A bit of poking about with a multi-meter easily traced the problem down to where the battery neg cable bolts onto the chassis, there was just a bit of corrosion under the terminal. So my theory is.. while the joint was cold all was mostly well but the joint had a higher than normal resistance. If you warmed the joint up by starting the car or driving with a bit of current heading in or out of the battery it would turn into a proper high resistance joint, then next time you tried a start it was dead. I reckon the rough running when I finally got it going was the ECU having been reset by being without power for a while as it was fine after I fixed the problem.

 

It sounds a simple one but it was maddeningly intermittent. I replaced what I thought were dead batteries twice because of this and I didn't drive far for ages, it took me almost 2 years to finally track this down!!     So if you have really odd intermittent starting / dead battery problems take your earth lead off and clean everything around the chassis terminal, dead quick and a proper cheap fix if it works..

[Exmantaa]

Lets try to make things a bit clear by talking about not-cranking and not-starting of an engine.

Two totallly different things, as cranking takes a huge amount of amp and a clear sign of bad battery, battery clamps or ground connenctions/straps. (easily dectetable by running a jumper ground wire straight to the engine block)

 

No engine starting and weird low voltages on several points is different; most likely caused by corrosion near the front fusebox or corroded wires from battery terminal to FB. (and besides low voltages that he had wrong engine MAP-sensor and T-sensor wiring...)

 

(If you know a your way around the VX wiring it's pretty easy to hotwire the Z22 engine; Put 12v on 3 pins in the X2/X3 connectors and ground 1 wire to get the fuelpump running. Done.)

[Rosssco]

Do you have battery voltage on both sides at fuse 8?

What voltage do you have on the violet wire on pin 13 of plug x3?

You said on another post it was nothing? That's a straight piece of wire. I'm not sure why there is a difficulty? Temporarily put a new piece of wire in if need be. 10 minutes work.

 

I'm getting battery voltage at Fuse 8 yep. Can't recall what voltage I'm getting at Pin 13. Would need to check. So you suspect wiring damage between these two locations?

 

Apologies if I'm off track but this sounds a bit familiar and if not it might help someone else who found themselves here.. I have posted some of this before but I had an interesting issue with the car randomly not turning over sometimes, usually after it had been started recently, that was a real bum cos I got to drive away from home and then couldn't get back. Leaving the car alone for an hour or 2 seemed to sort it out then it could be ok  for a couple of weeks. The other odd thing was the dash (instruments) occasionally made a squealing noise for a few mins and the car would often run a bit rough after starting. I occasionally trickle charge through the cig lighter socket (I'm sure someone will say that's bad but 14 years on the car is still fine and I'm still on my first bonnet release cable), the charger sometimes reported a battery error even though the battery voltage was looking ok at the terminals. 

 

Anyway to cut a long story short the charger message was the clue, the charger thought the battery was dud as it wasn't drawing any current, ergo the cig socket and the battery weren't connected anymore. A bit of poking about with a multi-meter easily traced the problem down to where the battery neg cable bolts onto the chassis, there was just a bit of corrosion under the terminal. So my theory is.. while the joint was cold all was mostly well but the joint had a higher than normal resistance. If you warmed the joint up by starting the car or driving with a bit of current heading in or out of the battery it would turn into a proper high resistance joint, then next time you tried a start it was dead. I reckon the rough running when I finally got it going was the ECU having been reset by being without power for a while as it was fine after I fixed the problem.

 

It sounds a simple one but it was maddeningly intermittent. I replaced what I thought were dead batteries twice because of this and I didn't drive far for ages, it took me almost 2 years to finally track this down!!     So if you have really odd intermittent starting / dead battery problems take your earth lead off and clean everything around the chassis terminal, dead quick and a proper cheap fix if it works..

 

Yeah the intermittent issues are the worst, as they give you no confidence to use the car. I've been through all the earth points before, new battery terminals etc. and no difference

 

Lets try to make things a bit clear by talking about not-cranking and not-starting of an engine.

Two totallly different things, as cranking takes a huge amount of amp and a clear sign of bad battery, battery clamps or ground connenctions/straps. (easily dectetable by running a jumper ground wire straight to the engine block)

 

No engine starting and weird low voltages on several points is different; most likely caused by corrosion near the front fusebox or corroded wires from battery terminal to FB. (and besides low voltages that he had wrong engine MAP-sensor and T-sensor wiring...)

 

(If you know a your way around the VX wiring it's pretty easy to hotwire the Z22 engine; Put 12v on 3 pins in the X2/X3 connectors and ground 1 wire to get the fuelpump running. Done.)

 

Had a look at the fuse box yesterday. No obvious signs of corrosion, but I get I'll need to remove all the terminals individually and inspect.

 

Also received the complete wiring from Vocky - basically all new wiring, and looks a total PITA to fit..

[Zoobeef]

It's not pleasant to fit at all.

[Exmantaa]

 

 
Had a look at the fuse box yesterday. No obvious signs of corrosion, but I get I'll need to remove all the terminals individually and inspect.
 
Also received the complete wiring from Vocky - basically all new wiring, and looks a total PITA to fit..

 

 
The whole car wiring loom IS a PITA to fit, as that requires removal of the front clam, most of the items under the front windscreen, under the dashboard, the center tunnel sections and if I remember correctly it also runs above, around the fuel tank.
Basically you need to dismantle the complete car... 


Had a look at the fuse box yesterday. No obvious signs of corrosion, but I get I'll need to remove all the terminals individually and inspect. 

Not only look, but you need to MEASURE for correct voltages on each fuse point to identify corrosion or broken wires...
But as said; to narrow your search you can hotwire most of the ecu feeds in the x connectors to run a VX engine. Or maybe easier; bypass possible bad connections in the fusebox 
 
- Charged battery >12.4v. (also under some load; check f.i, with lights on)
- Run a jumper ground wire from the terminal to the ecu chassis ground. (should be connected to the engine block ground)
- Run 1 thickish wire from the positive terminal towards your X connectors and splice from there. (with X connectors normally connected as you need all the throttle and dash connections) 

Maybe easier to first bypass the fusebox and run new 12v leads towards the FB#7 and FB#8 connections...
 

- Connect/splice 12v to X2 pin 5. (green wire. This is the ecu ignition switch feed)  =>  FROM FUSEBOX #7
- Connect/splice 12v to X3 pin 13 (violet wire. Ecu memory back-up feed) =>  FROM FUSEBOX #8
(These 2 should already give solid power to the ecu and it should start & run with this if the relays work nornally.)

 
- Grounding pin X2-12; green/pink wire will activate the K18 relay and put a solid 12v onto X2 pin1 for the sensors and injectors. (measure!) If not same as battery voltage, bypass and connect/splice 12v directly onto X2 pin1; thick brown/pink wire. (or splice 12v in the boot onto the brown pink wire from K18)

The fuelpump is activated by both the K16 (put 12v on X2 pin 8 to activate) and fed by the K18 relay, but to bypass all you can simply put 12v directly on the brown/grey wire of the K16 relay in the boot. 

This should give you solid voltages to the ecu with activated sensors/injectors and a running fuel pump.

Engine should start and run properly like this. (Assuming the ignition is on normally so you immobilizer module is also active...)
 
 
 
PS; for a non-cranking engine I forgot to mention the yellow starter relay as cause; but also this one is easy to bypass. => Put 12v onto the brown/red wire from the yellow relay to get the start motor cranking... (assuming the engine ground and thick 12v feed wire to the starter is OK)

[Rosssco]

Well I guess I can balance the time wasted on endless fault finding / tail chasing vs. installing the complete loom..

 

Hopefully get back to it in a week or so time and weather permitting!

[Nev]

I've had a problem with an eml due to the secondary O2 sensor. I had all the wiring, plugs earth points checked on my car. The ECU has been checked. I've had 4 O2 sensors and I still had the fault. It turns out that my car no longer likes Bosch sensors. Installed a vauxhall OEM one and problem gone. I mention it as it could be an issue with your car.

 

Are you that it was a genuine Bosch sensor bought from a reputable dealer? Lots of fakes around.
 

[Nev]

Well I guess I can balance the time wasted on endless fault finding / tail chasing vs. installing the complete loom..

 

Hopefully get back to it in a week or so time and weather permitting!

 

Jeeze, sounds like you've had hell, hope you have some good luck finding it soon. Maybe a fresh set of eyes (like Zoobeefs) would spot it?

 

[Rosssco]

Took some more measurements yesterday:

 

X2 Pin 5 – 10.0–11.1v          Fuse 7 – 12.0v

X3 Pin 13 – 12.3v                  Fuse 8 – 12.2v

 

My plan is to run a wire (as recommended by Exmantaa above) either direct from the battery, or for ease, the starter feed (checked and getting battery voltage ok here) and connect directly to X2 Pin 5 (with a 10a fuse, just in case). 

 

I could prob run it straight to the engine loom side pin which would avoid the X2 connector all together. Not a permanent solution, but trying to ID if this low voltage (its variable actually) is the cause of my issues.

 

If I can get the fusebox apart after that, I can try identify if its fusebox corrosion, or wire degradation between the ECU feed at the fuse box (fuse 7) as alluded to previously.