121 replies to this topic

[speedster]

For me the only hope to know the correct safc number for the GM-Delco 1 bar MAP sensor is to send an e-mail to Apexi

Sensor number? What do you reckon? What a Saturn uses, also has a 1 bar sensor.

You will need to enter sensor "04" for both in and out. This will allow the S-AFC to know that kind of voltage to expect coming in, and what kind of voltage to send out. The GM MAP sensor produces a 5V signal at 0 vacuum. I did some research to determine that our MAP is closest to that which is found on the Toyota RAV 4.

[cicastol]

ROTFL,toyota RAV4 need to be set 03 for both, on Jbody people are using also 03-03,07-07,05-05,04-00 and go on ,no one really know how this numbering scheme works,also near all MAP sensor on the market are 5V max output like the our!! On the manual you could find number varing from 1 to 20,this are the numbers listed for MAP sensor: 1,2,3,5,6,8,11,12,13,15,16,17,18,20 On the listed car in the manual there is not a car running with 04 sensor number..... I don't know, i will try and see wich number works better.....

Edited by cicastol, 07 November 2005 - 05:10 PM.

[paulf-cam]

What are you guys installing this fuel manager for? Thinking of boosting?

[speedster]

What are you guys installing this fuel manager for?

Thinking of boosting?

I hope to add boost further down the road but will put a performace head and cams on first. At the moment my current mods have me running rich in the midrange so I am leaning it off. I have add 5%-8% correction between 3600 - 5500 and I can feel the effects. When I get the wideband O2 sensor I hope to sort fuelling out proper.

Long term plan - To install Greddy Emanage + Boost. This is the introduction!

[cicastol]

What are you guys installing this fuel manager for?

Thinking of boosting?

actually i'm running with bigger bore full free exhaust with a moto style backbox,Dbilas intake and exhaust manifold and 266° cams,ECU was reprogrammed by Dbilas but on high rpm i'm running a little lean(i've a wide band lambda meter to check)now i want to put a bigger 68mm TB so i need to correct A\F ratio with precision because putting a bigger TB could led to a leaner and potentially dangerous A\F ratio!

[paulf-cam]

I hope to add boost further down the road but will put a performace head and cams on first. At the moment my current mods have me running rich in the midrange so I am leaning it off. I have add 5%-8% correction between 3600 - 5500 and I can feel the effects. When I get the wideband O2 sensor I hope to sort fuelling out proper.

Long term plan - To install Greddy Emanage + Boost. This is the introduction!

Be wary about going from NA cams to boosted, you really need different cams for a supercharger - something to do with valve overlap i hear...

Ta, Paul.

[paulf-cam]

actually i'm running with bigger bore full free exhaust with a moto style backbox,Dbilas intake and exhaust manifold and 266° cams,ECU was reprogrammed by Dbilas but on high rpm i'm running a little lean(i've a wide band lambda meter to check)now i want to put a bigger 68mm TB so i need to correct A\F ratio with precision because putting a bigger TB could led to a leaner and potentially dangerous A\F ratio!

Going for NA power, eh? Know what bhp your at right now?

Ta, Paul.

[clipping_point]

What are you guys installing this fuel manager for?

Thinking of boosting? 

actually i'm running with bigger bore full free exhaust with a moto style backbox,Dbilas intake and exhaust manifold and 266° cams,ECU was reprogrammed by Dbilas but on high rpm i'm running a little lean(i've a wide band lambda meter to check)now i want to put a bigger 68mm TB so i need to correct A\F ratio with precision because putting a bigger TB could led to a leaner and potentially dangerous A\F ratio!

Bigger injectors? FPR? Fuel pump next?

[cicastol]

Bigger injectors? FPR? Fuel pump next?

No,my last mod is the bigger 68mm TB,for now i don't want to go any further,i'm very happy with my expected 180Cv or near.
My arrival point was to reach the performance of the exige2,now my car is running faster so the arrival point is reached!!

[speedster]

Whats the ppl on j-body say about sensor number deduction!

CLICKY

[speedster]

Be wary about going from NA cams to boosted, you really need different cams for a supercharger - something to do with valve overlap i hear...

Ta, Paul.

Yup, thats one thing to watch out for ok. Getting the Adjustable Timing Gears too don't know if thats good for boost! If I feel OK with NA power maybe I will skip boost

[cicastol]

Whats the ppl on j-body say about sensor number deduction!

CLICKY

On jbody"because the sensor takes 5 volts in and uses
5 volts max out"



Near all MAP sensor are 5V........!!!
Try to find an automotive MAP sensor that don't work on 5V!!
Number 20(or 16,17 ecc.) does not mean 20V in and 20 V out!!,they dont'know nothing about the purpose of this numbering scheme....
Probably IMHO is only a specific model car\sensor manuf. calibration for DSP filtering and smoothening for the pulse in the intake manif. on the specific car equipped with that sensor or something else related to a specific calibration to read out the correct voltage.

Edited by cicastol, 09 November 2005 - 08:09 AM.

[speedster]

On jbody"because the sensor takes 5 volts in and uses
5 volts max out"



Near all MAP sensor are 5V........!!!
Try to find an automotive MAP sensor that don't work on 5V!!
Number 20(or 16,17 ecc.) does not mean 20V in and 20 V out!!,they dont'know nothing about the purpose of this numbering scheme....
Probably IMHO is only a specific model car\sensor manuf. calibration for DSP filtering and smoothening for the pulse in the intake manif. on the specific car equipped with that sensor or something else related to a specific calibration to read out the correct voltage.

I would tend to agree, it must be a more complex algorithm!

[speedster]

cicastol did you manage to install the SAFC-2 yet. I have a Innovate LM1 Wideband Digital Air/Fuel Ratio Meter and Sensor on the way so hope to tune properly soon. Been running with the standard A/F set-up now for last two weeks and no problems.

[cicastol]

cicastol did you manage to install the SAFC-2 yet. I have a Innovate LM1 Wideband Digital Air/Fuel Ratio Meter and Sensor on the way so hope to tune properly soon. Been running with the standard A/F set-up now for last two weeks and no problems.

Not yet installed..... probably next week!!

[speedster]

My LM-1 and RPM kit arrived today The LM-1 will allow me to log and store data from the Wideband O2 sensor whilst the additional RPM kit allows me to log RPM data plus data from up to five additional sensors. With the Logworks software all data can be displayed in realtime and/or can be dowload from the LM-1 to a PC for analysis offline later. Along with O2 data thinking of logging . RPM . MAP sensor (input to SAFC-2) . MAP (SAFC-2 output to ECU) . Throttle position . Temperature Don't know what else, is it worht logging vehicle speed?

Attached Files

•  lm1_rpm.JPG   128.45KB   0 downloads

[cicastol]

Along with O2 data thinking of logging
. RPM
. MAP sensor (input to SAFC-2)
. MAP (SAFC-2 output to ECU)
. Throttle position
. Temperature

Don't know what else, is it worht logging vehicle speed?

!!
Too many input for me,you can going mad with all that numbers!!
I'm still waiting for installation of safc II because the 68mm TB is not available,backordered and probable delivery date from 1/1/06 !!

[paulf-cam]

Once you guys have this installed would you be able to change the injectors for bigger units and compensate at idle* by using the SAFC? Or would you need an adjustable fuel pressure contoller? *) I mention idle because i hear that its often affected adversly by simply changing injectors. Cheers, Paul.

[speedster]

Once you guys have this installed would you be able to change the injectors for bigger units and compensate at idle* by using the SAFC? Or would you need an adjustable fuel pressure contoller?

*) I mention idle because i hear that its often affected adversly by simply changing injectors.

Cheers, Paul.

Yes, I heard of this issue and folks on the JBody side are using the SAFC-2 to manage it. My opinion is that you could but overall I reckon the SAFC-2 would not be the best for controlling larger injectors as you are limited to 12 control points along the full RPM range (then again I don't know how many points are in an ECU fuel table). Not related really but still interesting.... as you adjust the fuel levels lower with the SAFC-2 the ECU will start to detect the change (through its primary 02 sensor I believe - you can measure this change with a voltmeter) and will compensate by increasing the injectors fueling cycle. You do get to a point where the ECU can no longer compensate hence you can override the ECU ability to drive back up the fuel levels. Some people use this trick to run their engines on the lean side using higher octane fuels or to roughly tune ther car my hitting the point where the ECU can't compensate and bring the SAFC-2 change back 10%.

I reckon a system like the Greddy Emanage system may be the better long term piggyback solution. AFAIK Emanage takes over the injectors cycle and you can then manage it via the Greddy software. This will probably be my next step. Also if you make changes with the SAFC and run close to lean you have to really stick with a fuel with same octane level, though the SAFC does have the ability to load 2 seperate configurations.

One other interesting idea I've heard an d mentioned earlier - You can change the 1 bar MAP sensor to a 3 bar MAP and use injectors with double fuel injector capacity. The logic here - due to the reduced voltage that the 3 bar MAP supplies the ECU you end up more or less with the same level of fuelling as the standard set-up MAP and injector set-up. Don't know if this is true though

[paulf-cam]

Not related really but still interesting.... as you adjust the fuel levels lower with the SAFC-2 the ECU will start to detect the change (through its primary 02 sensor I believe - you can measure this change with a voltmeter) and will compensate by increasing the injectors fueling cycle

Ah, damn. I thought this wasn't a problem due to the way the SAFC fakes the MAP signal into the ECU...

Greddy EManage suffers from the same problem. Apparently, megasquirt is the way to go here - but it doesn't support sequential injection

One other interesting idea I've heard an d mentioned earlier - You can change the 1 bar MAP sensor to a 3 bar MAP and use injectors with double fuel injector capacity. The logic here - due to the reduced voltage that the 3 bar MAP supplies the ECU you end up more or less with the same level of fuelling as the standard set-up MAP and injector set-up. Don't know if this is true though

Hmmm, interesting. I guess it could work... Might be a little bit random though.

Tuners like courtney sport and TMS - don't they have access to the fuel tables in the ECU? My point being, perhaps you just fit bigger injectors, and then get those guys to tune the fuels tables back down at idle on the standard ECU. That would be cool...

Ta, Paul.