103 replies to this topic

[spuk87]

Car's been in for it's 4th service and whilst there also had MMG's 'road' version of the stage 1+ map as opposed to the previous one I had on (the 'track' map). As you can probably tell the maps are tailored more to road or track users respectively.

Standard OEM map:


Track Map (dip in torque due to 95 RON petrol):


Road Map:


Road Map with Standard Map Overlay:


Peak Torque Before/After: 183.4lbft @ 5600rpm / 267.9lbft @ 3600rpm
Peak Power Before/After: 200.2bhp @ 5800rpm / 241.0bhp @ 6100rpm

[southpaw]

That all looks very pretty, but what does your arsedyno think about the change?

[spuk87]

That all looks very pretty, but what does your arsedyno think about the change?

Haha. Yeah can definitely feel the difference between the track/road map, just picks up that little bit earlier. Feels like you're 500rpm higher at any given point. I've been running the track map since Feb which I went to from standard so the big change was then.

[rob999]

Nice results Si, did it cost anything to update the map?

[Nev]

Liam certainly seems to be offering a useful and well designed mapping service Do you know if he has he ever mapped a car with GT30 yet?

[VXT Tim]

Does Liam have a rolling road now? If not whose does he use?

[rob999]

I think he uses an onroad dyno (rather than static)

Edited by rob999, 18 September 2010 - 01:34 PM.

[spuk87]

Nice results Si, did it cost anything to update the map?

Not this time, basically because I'd already paid for the other map and this is simply an alternative version which Liam would've offered if he had come up with it back then (plus I am sort of acting as a guinea pig for it )

Liam certainly seems to be offering a useful and well designed mapping service

Do you know if he has he ever mapped a car with GT30 yet?

Not sure Nev, he has dealt with lots of variations in spec though so it might be worth you asking .

Does Liam have a rolling road now?
If not whose does he use?

I think he uses an onroad dyno (rather than static)

Yep still on road dyno. Can't really fault it though; I originally had a dyno run before and after the remap in Feb so it allowed me to see before and after figures; even if the initial numbers were wrong you can still rely on the percentage increase.

[iVXT]

Car's been in for it's 4th service and whilst there also had MMG's 'road' version of the stage 1+ map as opposed to the previous one I had on (the 'track' map). As you can probably tell the maps are tailored more to road or track users respectively.

Peak Torque Before/After: 183.4lbft @ 5600rpm / 267.9lbft @ 3600rpm
Peak Power Before/After: 200.2bhp @ 5800rpm / 241.0bhp @ 6100rpm

Really impressive results from that. Are you still just running a pre-cat removal pipe & remap or have you had anything else done? Liam has got your lbft up to stage 2 level now (along with the bhp almost as before) which seems a big improvement from the last map.

More even power curve as well by look of it.

Does he think this will this cause any problems heat wise or clutch wise?

[spuk87]

Really impressive results from that. Are you still just running a pre-cat removal pipe & remap or have you had anything else done? Liam has got your lbft up to stage 2 level now (along with the bhp almost as before) which seems a big improvement from the last map.

More even power curve as well by look of it.

Does he think this will this cause any problems heat wise or clutch wise?

Yep, still the only hardware change is the pre-cat replacement. In fairness to the track map I suspect there is more torque than is shown on that dyno; as stated that run was done with 95 RON petrol which the map is not designed for, after my first fill up with V-power I must admit it did seem significantly faster at low revs.


I went for a decent run yesterday and I think the road map is smoother on part-throttle as well; particularly when you are accelerating hard then back off the accelerator just enough for the boost to drop, there is no sudden jolt and loss of power like there used to be.

Regarding clutch problems- no problem on mine so far but car is fairly young and low mileage so inevitably it will give up some day. As you say it's basically average stage 2 torque so will probably suffer the same sort of wear as they do.

Heat wise - this is the main difference between the road map and the track map. The track map is deliberately scaled back due to the hammering the car gets on track and the subsequent rise in temperatures. The road map is more powerful but is not ideal for dealing with a long sustained load i.e. on a track. From what Liam said the road map is fine to use on track however after sustained heavy use the intake temps will start to get high and so the ECU will most likely start retarding the ignition and reducing boost, so you will start to lose power. On the road it's fine as you will never get the chance to be redlining through all the gears for long enough to get high temperatures.

[manghan]

I like the look of them results, I'm after a map myself can I ask how much they charge for this map? Also where are mmg based? Thanks

[iVXT]

Really impressive results from that. Are you still just running a pre-cat removal pipe & remap or have you had anything else done? Liam has got your lbft up to stage 2 level now (along with the bhp almost as before) which seems a big improvement from the last map.

More even power curve as well by look of it.

Does he think this will this cause any problems heat wise or clutch wise?

Yep, still the only hardware change is the pre-cat replacement. In fairness to the track map I suspect there is more torque than is shown on that dyno; as stated that run was done with 95 RON petrol which the map is not designed for, after my first fill up with V-power I must admit it did seem significantly faster at low revs.


I went for a decent run yesterday and I think the road map is smoother on part-throttle as well; particularly when you are accelerating hard then back off the accelerator just enough for the boost to drop, there is no sudden jolt and loss of power like there used to be.

Regarding clutch problems- no problem on mine so far but car is fairly young and low mileage so inevitably it will give up some day. As you say it's basically average stage 2 torque so will probably suffer the same sort of wear as they do.

Heat wise - this is the main difference between the road map and the track map. The track map is deliberately scaled back due to the hammering the car gets on track and the subsequent rise in temperatures. The road map is more powerful but is not ideal for dealing with a long sustained load i.e. on a track. From what Liam said the road map is fine to use on track however after sustained heavy use the intake temps will start to get high and so the ECU will most likely start retarding the ignition and reducing boost, so you will start to lose power. On the road it's fine as you will never get the chance to be redlining through all the gears for long enough to get high temperatures.

Thanks a lot for the info. It's sounding better & better. Also blows the 'you need an exhaust system (costing around £1300) to get these figures from of a vxt' out of the water!

Very very interesting.

I like the look of them results, I'm after a map myself can I ask how much they charge for this map?
Also where are mmg based?
Thanks

They're in Sutton Coldfield http://www.mmgperformance.co.uk/

The price on the site for stage 1+ is £575.00 (excl vat).

[WrightStuff]

Being an ignorant monkey I have no idea how these dyno plots compare to say a Courtenay or TMS stage 2. Anyone care to comment ?

[techieboy]

No idea. I don't think we've ever seen a real dyno plot from an MMG mapped car yet.

[spuk87]

Being an ignorant monkey I have no idea how these dyno plots compare to say a Courtenay or TMS stage 2. Anyone care to comment ?

Generally similar shape, but it appears MMG maps tend to have more peak power and torque I think.

No idea. I don't think we've ever seen a real dyno plot from an MMG mapped car yet.

By real I assume you mean rolling road? I've never seen one either but on the Welsh run we were both on and the recent Peak District run I was comfortably out accelerating Mani's VXR (he claims it's about 235bhp, but worst case should be 217bhp) and kept up with MrSimba's Exige 260 (though he might not have been gunning it because I think he was worried about stone chips). That would suggest the power figures are realistic at least.

[techieboy]

By real I assume you mean rolling road?

Sorry, yes, a rolling road graph.

Wasn't meant to sound like I was doubting the way MMG do it, or the performance gains. But would be good to see how the two methods compare directly.

[MrSimba]

Matt if you've not met Liam (MMG) yet he's one of the most knowledgable VX / Lotus specialists around, seriously give him a call about anything VX related even if it's just to bounce an idea about to get another opinion and I'm sure you'll be very impressed by his wealth of experience and how much of a genuine enthusiast Liam is. I just wish he did Porsche!!!

[techieboy]

I'd love a choice for mapping the SC but the NA's ECU is still a mystery to all but Courtenays/Klassen (where it's still a bit of a mystery) and the Dutch guy, Peter, who's doing some interesting stuff with it. If we ever manage to do the turbo ECU transplant, that potentially opens a whole world of different options. Maybe.

[The Batman]

Too be honest even with the tubby ecu transplant, I think it will be a Courtenay only job still! Just because I can imagine the base map being completely different to a tubby and they would have to figure out what to turn off adapt etc!

[turbobob]

By real I assume you mean rolling road?

Sorry, yes, a rolling road graph.

Wasn't meant to sound like I was doubting the way MMG do it, or the performance gains. But would be good to see how the two methods compare directly.

Liam has invested an awful lot of money and time developing and testing the range of tuning. He has looked at different rolling road dynos and on road dynos and compared them. He hasn't just opted for the on road dyno.

If any of you have any doubts about it, Liam would be more than happy to go through it all with you I'm sure.