182 replies to this topic

[stuarth1]

Lets put things into context:

This is a serious amount of money spent by VXR36.

I thought spending my hard earned money on a stage 2 was a nervous enough procedure,
but stage 5....

I'm looking at stage 4 soon and I am definately not gonna jump on a band wagon but look at the results and feedback from customers.

And this kind of information has to be taken into account.

Like I said we are spending big bucks on all this tuning lark. We need to know the good, the bad and the ugly.

Don't really want to get into the who's right or wrong on this particular issue as I have no idea, and to be honest it's none of my business, but I'm thinking of doing some upgrading later this year, and since all my encounters with TMS so far have been good ones (especially last year when Thorney bent over backwards to get me out of a spot), they'll be first on my list for the chance to do it.

Edited by stuarth1, 26 January 2008 - 01:39 PM.

[vxr36]

Good point John, i forgot about some of the incidentals....
1st Your quote of £9382.50 incl VAT dated23/3/2006 was superceded in Jan 2007 with the following..
Andrew,

Sorry mate, this website has taken a life of its own this week, I worked straight all night from Friday through to Sat night to try and break the work but I should be able to release it this week.

Right, the work on your car takes three stages, stage
1 (the chassis) is all pretty stright forward and is covered (details on costs in our stage 5 conversation)so thats charge cooler etc.

I cant remember what you've got on your car - its a stage 3 at the moment isn't it?
If so then all we've got to add is clutch, engine work and turbo.

Clutch will be about £1800 for the full deal - lightened flywheel Paddle clutch Labour, bearing etc etc

and that will all you'll need initially.

Stage 2 is the engine work:

Pistons £850
Rods - £650
Cams - £950
head work - £550
gaskets, seals - £200
Labour - 24 hours

As the engine has to come out for the clutch anyway I've put the labour in for that included in that cost.

Final part is the new turbo. Initially I propose we put an Astra VXR unit in there to run the engine in at that time I should be happy that mine is doing its job acceptably. Then we swap to the new turbo, manifold, intake pipework, remap, boost controller and all the gubbins which should be about £1800 all in. Still some conjecture on this bit of the work as Garet are now working directly with us on the project (due to the racing).

This equated to Stage 1
£950 Parts for Charge cooler
Labour for front clam removal/refit 6 * 65 £390
Clutch and flywheel parts £800 Labour covered in stage 2
The rear clam removal had to be done for stage 2 of the quote so is included in that part.
Total £2514.50 (incl VAT)

Stage 2
As above quote
Parts £3200
Labour 24 * 65 £1560
Total £5593.00 (incl VAT)

Stage 3
As above quote £1800
Total £2115 (incl VAT)

Grand Total £10222.50

I have got all but some of the stage 3 parts. I also took advantage of getting some other work done at the same time:-
Fitting of my guages - £261.31 incl VAT
Fitting of an LSD - £235.00 incl VAT
Suppy and fitting of rear wing - £1004.63 VAT
Total 1500.94 incl VAT

So whole job should be £11723.44

Bits that were added were a radiator covered by warranty (although I suspect there is a difference to pay as I opted for an alloy rad), an MOT and the long range fuel tank. I have no idea of the cost of all that but I would think it would be less than £1000 incl VAT

So maximum due when car completed would be less than £12723.44

The paint work was covered under a seperate invoice 10001168 (which also included a new set of rears) and I have not included this.

I did not get the Astra turbo to 'run in the engine' but that is by the by.

I have made 2 related payments:- 1 for £9988.50 and 1 for £1500 totalling £11488.50. TMS has written that I now owe a further £3000 as a final payment to conclude business. This would mean £14488.50 for the car 'as is' and it is nowhere near finished... Sure he says all it needs is a change of injectors and a re-map but that is clearly not the case when that is all it needed when it was with TMS the last time... for 9 weeks! And how much extra would that be?

I have since gone to Plans for an assesment of my car and replacement of the broken Engine mount.
It is now at Courtneys (having had a similar assesment) and I don't suspect they will carry out the remedial work for nothing.
I have not got a quote for the rear clam replacement or boot lid yet.

My point is that I don't feel I owe TMS anything. In fact if I considered all my unnecessary expenses then I believe TMS would owe me. I was prepared to come to an amicable agreement (which I thought we had, (see post 1)) and then I got the phone call.

I am preparing all my expenses now for the inevitable confrontation.

Edited by vxr36, 26 January 2008 - 01:54 PM.

[Thorney]

Speak to Courtenay, Jon confirms that all the car needs are larger injectors and a remap - EXACTLY what I said that was needed. We were all prepared to finish that work, replace the bootlid (as we'd already offered) and finish the job, then you send me an email saying (lying) that COurtenay said the whole job was substandard and you should be invoicing us! I try to calm it down by saying we wouldn't persue the outstanding invoice in the hope that we could reconcile it and your response is to put a detailed thread on 116 complaining the job was done poorly and saying Courtenay said the work was poor - which is simply untrue. You've created this situation I am simply deffending ourselves.

[TankRizzo]

But what pisses me off is the fact that it only takes one person to say:

"Oh xxxx is a cun­t because he broke my car / charged me too much / stole my removed parts / desecrated my car"

and everyone jumps on the bandwagon with their little dig, either based on the biased previous posts, or their "'issues'

If you really have a problem, speak to the other person, get it sorted. If they aren't helping take them to court and get a judgement.

But until then, don't go posting on a forum about it, as if you're found to be the one lying, you're then opening yourself up to libel and potentially a counterclaim for damages.

As for the people who will jump in and say "but then no-one can say bad things about anyone", well frankly, if you base all your research from posts on the internet and find yourself unable to actually talk to them, you have far greater problems.

..

This in my opinion is why this site should have a No Naming and Shaming policy, as otherwise there will always be someone with an axe to grind for whatever reason.

I'm sorry, but that's completely ridiculous. As a 220 newbie, myself and others rely on the experiences of people on here to form opinions about where to go to get our work done. Obviously you have to take things with a little pinch of salt sometimes, as people will get aggrieved about whatever has gone wrong between them and x company. Also, mud sticks far stronger than praise. But if this truly is supposed to be an "open" owners' forum, all experiences, no matter how good or bad, should be aired.

It's not for me to comment on the actual topic, as I do not know enough about it. But for everyone saying, "This should be taken off the forum and dealt with outside," I'm sorry - I simply don't agree.

[Thorney]

I'm prepared to take this offline to see if an amicable solution can be found, but if not then I'm not going to go into a protracted conversation here with Andrew, we'll simply resort to formal methods of resolution, happy to avoid that if Andrew and I can be reasonable?

[Crimson_Killa]

Speak to Courtenay, Jon confirms that all the car needs are larger injectors and a remap - EXACTLY what I said that was needed. We were all prepared to finish that work, replace the bootlid (as we'd already offered) and finish the job, then you send me an email saying (lying) that COurtenay said the whole job was substandard and you should be invoicing us! I try to calm it down by saying we wouldn't persue the outstanding invoice in the hope that we could reconcile it and your response is to put a detailed thread on 116 complaining the job was done poorly and saying Courtenay said the work was poor - which is simply untrue. You've created this situation I am simply deffending ourselves.

What so you find braking the data protection act (or rather getting courtenays to brake it) acceptable.

Because as far as im aware unless andrew has given his expressed permission for your contacting them about his car (which i doubt given the curcumstances) then you have no right to know (or try to influence them in identifying) what is wrong with the car, anyway being an expert you shouldnt neet to contact them to find out whats wrong with the car surely concideing your company made all the changes?

I would be happy to come and watch down at the court house too... will even bring the popcorn.....

[wrightster]

i find this whole situation amazing i am not taking sides as i dont know the full story but whatever the outcome the only damage that will be noted is that to the TMS reputation regardless of who is to blame.

[Guy182]

edit - infact fcuk it.. i dont need to dig you a hole, you're doing it just fine yourself carry on

Edited by Guy182, 26 January 2008 - 03:48 PM.

[denno]

Nobody is going to win out of this one.

[Blue One]

Geez there are some right fcuking sad bitter bastards on this forum!!! I thought an old boys club for MGBs etc or a bunch of steam railway enthusiasts would have this kind of sad protracted dialogue, not a 'youngish' bunch who share a passion for a car like a VX220. Get a life you sad gits and sort out your dirty laundry offline!!!!! Maybe some of you lot are on the menopors or like having an allotment to chill out at the weekend...

[johnaachen]

I have read the whole lot twice and my conclusions are inconclusive:-) The whole agreement seems so shaky if you ask me....some of the things that I picked up - correct me if I am wrong:- 1. There was no definite quote on cost of work -if the vehicle is in "development" then surely the work costs what it costs? In time and money. 2. Did TMS ever say that that they would get you 360bhp? Have you got this in writing? Or have you got 360bhp already? Or is it the fact that you don't feel the job has been completed in terms of the oil leak, wrong injectors etc etc? 3. Rad and engine mounts are common faults on the VX - everyone knows that so I don't thinik that this is somethinig taht can bnecessarily attributed to TMS? 4.What is the final £3k for that TMS want? I feel sorry for TMS that they get this very public bashing but then I never read (or have never seen) bad posts about Plans or Courtenay....

[vxr36]

Nobody is going to win out of this one.

We'll see. I am so upset by this whole thing that I am fully prepared to go all the way. I have been subservient for far too long. You have really gone too far this time John.

[vxr36]

I have read the whole lot twice and my conclusions are inconclusive:-)
The whole agreement seems so shaky if you ask me....some of the things that I picked up - correct me if I am wrong:-

1. There was no definite quote on cost of work -if the vehicle is in "development" then surely the work costs what it costs? In time and money.
2. Did TMS ever say that that they would get you 360bhp? Have you got this in writing? Or have you got 360bhp already? Or is it the fact that you don't feel the job has been completed in terms of the oil leak, wrong injectors etc etc?
3. Rad and engine mounts are common faults on the VX - everyone knows that so I don't thinik that this is somethinig taht can bnecessarily
attributed to TMS?
4.What is the final £3k for that TMS want?

I feel sorry for TMS that they get this very public bashing but then I never read (or have never seen) bad posts about Plans or Courtenay....

Yes I have 2 quotes. one in 2006 and one in 2007 The later I have posted above.
Yes I have an email regarding the BHP.
They are common faults agreed but they all happened during a period when the map was being done ie rolling road work.
No idea... the first I heard about it was on this thread. I have invoices for less value than I have paid. Even the voicemail didn't refer to an amount just what was outstanding... which could be anybody's guess as no invoice had been issued.

[johnaachen]

I have read the whole lot twice and my conclusions are inconclusive:-)
The whole agreement seems so shaky if you ask me....some of the things that I picked up - correct me if I am wrong:-

1. There was no definite quote on cost of work -if the vehicle is in "development" then surely the work costs what it costs? In time and money.
2. Did TMS ever say that that they would get you 360bhp? Have you got this in writing? Or have you got 360bhp already? Or is it the fact that you don't feel the job has been completed in terms of the oil leak, wrong injectors etc etc?
3. Rad and engine mounts are common faults on the VX - everyone knows that so I don't thinik that this is somethinig taht can bnecessarily
attributed to TMS?
4.What is the final £3k for that TMS want?

I feel sorry for TMS that they get this very public bashing but then I never read (or have never seen) bad posts about Plans or Courtenay....

Yes I have 2 quotes. one in 2006 and one in 2007 The later I have posted above.
Yes I have an email regarding the BHP.
They are common faults agreed but they all happened during a period when the map was being done ie rolling road work.
No idea... the first I heard about it was on this thread. I have invoices for less value than I have paid. Even the voicemail didn't refer to an amount just what was outstanding... which could be anybody's guess as no invoice had been issued.

Well then it would seem like you have good reason to be annoyed!!
Good luck although from what I have read I don't think that you need it....

[NickB787]

£5 says this thread goes missing by the morning...

Pay up

[Thorney]

The rad went when the car was having its MOT at the MOT station.....a fact you well know, but of course thats our fault too. The engine mounts are a common failure especially on acar of your mileage and the fact you run AO48 tyres year round, must be nice to blame us for everything....I'm sure the weather is our fault too? The point is you knew that all we needed to do was do the injectors and the map and you decided to avoid the last invoice by taking it somehwere else and suggesting that the work was crap, when that didn't happen and all they did was confirm what I'd told you then you decide to blame us anyway. At all times the power gains were referred to what we had proven on our race car - 330bhp running on only 15psi of boost, as the turbo is rated to 35psi we estimated 360bhp was easily achieveable (indeed the turbo is rated to 400bhp). But you know all this and are no doubt enjoying the publicity this is generating for you. We will look bad out of this but not because of so called bad work but the fact I dont hide anything and I'd rather air the issues than hide them. There were several quotes and all of them as regards the turbo, manifold and final work were estimates, again a point you are fully aware. I'd have more sympathy if you actually put all the details up, not just the ones that make you feel better. It was development, you knew it was development and as late at December last year (by your own post) you recognise that its pretty much done and all was needed was injectors, you can't then turn around and say its all been crap, it just doesn;t work that way. In the meantime we've done extra work on the car FOC and been given courtesy cars for free (which I never agreed in the beginning) to compensate you for the time delays, a point you just conveniently forget.

[Muncher]

To be fair to TMS, the rad can fail at any time, they're a ticking time bomb and needn't go under load. Again, engine mounts are the same, just one of those unfortunate things, the stress on them builds up over a long period of time.

[Silent1]

But until then, don't go posting on a forum about it, as if you're found to be the one lying, you're then opening yourself up to libel and potentially a counterclaim for damages.

If thats the sort of world you want to live in go live in North Korea. Libel action for having a moan on a forum about someone....god you're whats tits up with this country

Oh how very good of you, do you actually understand what libel and slander are? Yes, very good they're a british law.

No-where have i said people can't post the facts about a company, but it seems silly to come on here lambasting XYZ without talking to them about it, or if they're being useless, take them to small claims. After all if you've got irrefutable evidence, you'll win, won't you?

And who are we to judge fact, therefore we leave it to the courts.
If you've not got the bollocks to take it to court and stand by your word, you're no more than a keyboard warrior out to cause trouble.

Now, see there, i've not resorted to personal insults have i? That's what makes the difference between a playground punch-up and a reasoned debate between adults.

[Guy182]

[Muncher]

The trouble is, libel actions are hugely expensive and time consuming so it's very rarely suing someone for libel unless the allegations are very, very serious, have caused you quantifiable harm, you have deep pockets and the defendant has deep pockets.