82 replies to this topic

[The Batman]

love the pikeyness, makes me think about the first pikey sc build just one thing though.. change that pikey hose for some 19mm heater hose that is probably alot cheaper than what you used

[G-Bob]

Love the pikie approach! It would make it awesomely-pikie if you just used random bolts from an MFI flat-pack! It's amazing how cheaply you can setup stuff by just using part from other cars. Might not be the best performance you can ever get, but it's good BHP per £££.

[JohnTurbo]

Just to finish this thread off:-

20) Receive newly welded heat exchanger back from welders. (They slightly melted the [redundant] heat shielding stuff.)



21) Fit the MAP / TEMP sensor to the top. NOTE! Be sure the sealing o-ring doesn't basically dangle through the hole in free space or it will leak like hell, whistle and ruin your Sunday.



22) Fit and complete the plumbing. Relax!




As you may have gathered, my car made a *staggering* 152hp on the rollers with this fitted. That's a spectacular 80bhp less than predicted. - I *believe* this to be due to the leak around the MAF but will find out for sure when I can. - It did push 247lbft of torque.

I also intend on evaluating the IAT around road and track when my bluetooth OBDII arrives. So far I'd say it performs better than the stock IC - but if it doesn't meet my aspirations the heat exchanger will be the part that gets swapped. After a hard thrash, if i jump out of the car and feel it...the exchanger is cold - so it seems like the effectiveness is mostly down to the air->alloy conduction.
None of the designs of CC are ideal by my own education in these matters (Masters in Mech. Engineering) - though ProAlloy are unsurprisingly the closest to the mark as the water path is tenuous and the air-metal surface area is massive.

Next project is adapt a Scooby master cylinder, a la the pioneering works of Joshua.

Edited by JohnTurbo, 02 April 2012 - 09:28 PM.

[Duncan VXR]

Great stuff John Be good to see how it performs under some boost conditions and break the magic 200bhp mark There were no issues with charge temps on the last run DG

[JohnTurbo]

4th gear drag peak 1.2bar and holding 1bar. It peaks at about 65 degrees...(on gauge hold from multiple runs) and you can see the decay. Anybody ever done this on a stock IC?

[JohnTurbo]

Btw...my derv Saab estate runs 23psi of boost and did a 7.55sec 0-60 according to Torque. Max IAT 22 degrees. Awesome.

[JohnTurbo]

Couple of developments:-

1) Fixed the leak around the MAP sensor and took it back to Duncan's mate in Runcorn for a dyno plot.





As you can see a little better than 152HP!! I'm told apart from the blip at 5000 the fueling looks magic- about the best mapping he's seen on one. (LOL!)
I defy anyone to beat my figures...running as I was -0.3PSI max boost
- Of course that wasn't plugged in, but held boost on my phone was 16psi.

I logged the IAT for the run - max temperature got to 72 degrees (plot looked the same as the road plot above in shape). This ain't bad, but nor is it ideal....

2) I've found and ordered a new chargecooler core. - This is blowing my £200 budget a bit, but it will fit pretty easily and follows the long tube&fin design I have in my head as optimum. It took some finding!! @£120 delivered from abroad its not expensive, but we'll see how it goes.

Expect an update soon!

[rob999]

Top work....glad you got some 'realistic' numbers this time. Was this an MMG map btw?

[JohnTurbo]

No its not mmg...or Courtenays. :-)

[cnrandall]

Couple of developments:-

1) Fixed the leak around the MAP sensor and took it back to Duncan's mate in Runcorn for a dyno plot.





As you can see a little better than 152HP!! I'm told apart from the blip at 5000 the fueling looks magic- about the best mapping he's seen on one. (LOL!)
I defy anyone to beat my figures...running as I was -0.3PSI max boost
- Of course that wasn't plugged in, but held boost on my phone was 16psi.

I logged the IAT for the run - max temperature got to 72 degrees (plot looked the same as the road plot above in shape). This ain't bad, but nor is it ideal....

2) I've found and ordered a new chargecooler core. - This is blowing my £200 budget a bit, but it will fit pretty easily and follows the long tube&fin design I have in my head as optimum. It took some finding!! @£120 delivered from abroad its not expensive, but we'll see how it goes.

Expect an update soon!

70+ degres on the dyno is VERY hot... If you take it on track you will see it get considerably worse than that. By comparison, my new gen CC system would happily keep temps within 10 degrees of ambient with your power level... well configured CC systems can work very, very well.

[JohnTurbo]

Is it 200quid? - You don't need to convince me on the science, I did heat exchangers at school. Problem here is its what looks like a plated up air-air IC, so the channels are the wrong bias in terms of cross sectional area. = Pressure loss across the core = Some of the water won't be moving across the core, so it won't be efficient. I don't believe i'm actually getting the water very hot at all. Bet you within a fortnight I have better news. - But the existing system I will monitor closely at Oulton on Friday. Sure - it would be easy for me to buy a properly good system out of the box, (I couldn't design a system much better than the PA one, its close to optimum IMHO) but where is the fun in that? and of course it would be less interesting should anyone be reading this thread!

[The Batman]

if anyone does want a pro alloy chargecooler, pm me

[JohnTurbo]

We charge for plugs in this thread you know. A pint a go!

[cnrandall]

Is it 200quid?
- You don't need to convince me on the science, I did heat exchangers at school.

Problem here is its what looks like a plated up air-air IC, so the channels are the wrong bias in terms of cross sectional area.
= Pressure loss across the core
= Some of the water won't be moving across the core, so it won't be efficient.

I don't believe i'm actually getting the water very hot at all. Bet you within a fortnight I have better news. - But the existing system I will monitor closely at Oulton on Friday.

Sure - it would be easy for me to buy a properly good system out of the box, (I couldn't design a system much better than the PA one, its close to optimum IMHO) but where is the fun in that? and of course it would be less interesting should anyone be reading this thread!

When I was using the stock(ish) PA system I was seeing over 90 degree intake temps on track. I have almost halved that by optimisation, which ironically has slightly reduced the build cost. No, it doesn't cost £200, but then you could have spent £200 on loose women or beer, had some fun with it and still have sh** intake air temps ;-)

[JohnTurbo]

Hurrah for sh** IAT & loose women! lol.

Right, so I have an update, as finally I've prized my new heat exchanger from the fingers of British customs. (Using a £ shaped crowbar)

I took my old one on Track at Oulton and nothing went bang but I didn't log the temperature. The water in the system didn't get hot however.

Anyway the new exchanger with 90 elbow (pre cutting down)...
The air pipes are 62mm compared to the 50 and 55mm ones on the stock IC. That's 53% more cross sectional area.



There is 19mm tapered brass fittings, and the water side comprises of narrow, finned channels. This should ensure the water in the exchanger is flushed in a relatively short time. I may experiment with a nice 25lit/min pump I've found too.



Air-side is a finned area. The pressure drop and x-sec are massively better than the stock system and my other heat exchanger.



Finally, all three units side by side. You can see my new one is much smaller but that isn't a bad thing. just the nature of a more suitable design. I expect good results from this, but of course will do a like-like test with a graph, as I'm not a fan of speculation.

[FAST_aD13]

ahh so this is where you disappeared off to Looking good - whats it off/natievly for?

Edited by FAST_aD13, 23 April 2012 - 08:50 PM.

[JohnTurbo]

Yes indeed. Its brand new and generic. Solidly made, the threads are steel inserted etc.

[hutchy]

Will be looking out keenly for how this performs, a cheap alternative would be very welcome

[JohnTurbo]

A little more progress...

I'm dead proud of this. If you think pipe designed to fit over 50mm tubing is happy just to jump onto 63.5mm tubing you're having a giraffe! I have no fingers left at all.



The elbow is a cast item, and the material thickness is asymmetric, so there was enough meat on this side to mount the MAP/T sensor. I put a flat on it first.



Provisionally plumbed in.

Some points:-
* As above the tube from the turbo took some real getting on. It must be what people with big knobs go through when using normal-person-sized 'protection'.
* Top hose is 55mm so went on ok-er. The reach was close though.
* The wiring of the MAP/T could do to be a little longer for my chosen location.
* The big polystyrene block at the rear of the sil is not ideally placed for my hot tube. Might need to attack the thing with some angle fittings.
* Have managed to re-use my bracket, but may remake a more suitable one at some point.

[siztenboots]

when you plumb it in , make sure the cold water supply is nearest the charge air exit, so the temperature differential is optimum across the core.