939 replies to this topic

[oblomov]

Well everyone's happy. We all understand each other and know not to cross anyone's moral/religious values. Happy happy joy joy. So just to be clear, not wanting to sit on any fence, any halfway house.. Yep I believe in God. I believe He exists both down here and up in heaven. Now I'm happy too. Just like everyone else. Oh and a very merry Christmas to everyone. Whatever you do or don't believe.

 

A Merry Pagan Festival to you too Pete.  

[casino]

Sorry to hear of your loss Gordon. Seems so soon after we both suffered earlier this year. Doesn't seem right to try to airbrush the pain with some get out words right now. But it's the same for all of us no matter what we do or don't believe. We all have to suffer loss. There's no alternative. If there is please let me know. Anyway. You can tell God exactly what you think of him anytime you like. You might not get an answer right away but you will get one. I'm still around just like earlier this year.

[iceman]

 

Do i believe in God?
 
 
..a belief in God requires a belief and a trust, as well as an understanding, in and of the means that taught of his existence.

 
Therein lies the crux of the God problem. Religion itself as a vehicle for belief.
 
I would argue that for any religion to have credibility (in all senses) that it should meet certain criteria all of which can be covered by the term 'life supporting'. That is, any religion could be considered a genuine religion as opposed to simply a belief system masquerading as a religion. However genuine religions are also belief systems.
 
I would also argue that if there is a supreme being there must by definition be only one, therefore all genuine religions must be different expressions of the same ultimate reality.
 
The following criteria would seem to me to be essential in the definition of a genuine religion; so, in no particular order and tautologically inclusive:

[*]
Ahimsa as an overarching principle that is repeated below.
[*]
Compassion toward others.
[*]
Respect for the religious beliefs and customs of others.
[*]
Doing no harm to others.
[*]
The acceptance of all other races as equal.
[*]
Forgiveness. I would qualify this by saying that such forgiveness is not the bestowed forgiveness of any perceived God, but rather the forgiveness of man towards man.
[/list]This brings us to very the origin of any religion and that usually, (but not always) stems from a single teacher and that teacher is invariably 'enlightened' in a spiritual sense. Enlightenment in this sense is a very interesting concept as it refers to someone who has in some way transcended the normal understanding of the phenomenal world and has become 'one' with the underlying reality that supports all existence. So, do/did these 'enlightened' people really have a genuine experience or were they just delusional?
 
In the Hindu, Buddhist and Jain religions, the pursuit of 'enlightenment' is the very purpose of man's existence. Christ was enlightened. Buddha was 'enlightened' Hinduism has a long tradition of 'enlightened' individuals such as Ramana Mahrshi https://en.wikipedia...Ramana_Maharshi
 
In the present climate Islam merits a special mention. I'm not sure where the Prophet Mohamed comes in relation to enlightenment, but, the Sufi Mystics http://http://www.ag..._mysticism.html certainly believed it was possible to have a direct experience of God. When correctly interpreted Islam teaches that the rights of all should be protected, that individuals of all belief systems should be allowed to hold and convey their opinions without the threat or intimidation. Apostasy is man's invention not God's, as a form of control, and is not part of Islam. And, interestingly Mohammed said
"There will come a time upon the people when nothing will remain of Islam except its name only and nothing will remain of the Qur'an except its inscription. Their mosques will be splendidly furnished but destitute of guidance. Their divines will be the worst people under the heaven and strife will issue from and avert to them." (Mishkat, Kitab al-'Ilm; Kanz al-'Ummal, 6:43).
 
The point I'm making is that underlying all religion of value is an alleged universal truth, an alleged reality which though it exists is beyond the understanding of ordinary men, but has nevertheless allegedly been revealed to a few 'worthy' individuals. This 'understanding' is theoretically available to anyone who has sufficient desire for it.
 
All religious texts emanating from an 'enlightened' teacher are a 'map' of how to get 'there'. This, is where all problems arise. If you can't read/understand the map, you end up in the wrong place. Then there are those (many) who for selfish reasons start by deciding where they want 'there' to be and then, deliberately manipulate and misread the map for their own ends.

 

Good afternoon Sir.

 

I couldn't agree more with you, nicely written (as one would expect from your good self).

 

Indeed religions are primarily belief systems but (and it's a big 'but') i believe those systems to be the first step and once that first and most important (arguably) step is taken and made steady, the engineering core of all that lays beyond is life confirming (and agreed, supporting) through the further steps of life's beginning, middle and end (and the balance of all three). It initially seemed a paradox to me that death is the greatest giver (teacher) of life but as both are differing sides to the same coin, their interconnected value is obvious really.

 

I found (or feel) that religions were basically, fundamentally, trying to put in to words (metaphors) the voice which the cycle of nature and the intricate systems that micro manage every single simple system held in the perfect universal balance, already spoke with. I found that in order to look 'out' and beyond, on to understand, one must start first by looking 'back' and within. The human body itself is an intricate balance of harmonious systems, systems all capable of compromising each other but in balance, all complimenting one another in an order that makes the whole. A direct reflection of both the universe complete and, back even closer, mother nature herself and dare i say, the teachings of any worthy religion.

 

I found (or feel) that the lessons of belief, the fuel that runs the vehicle of the belief system, was not only before my eyes (night and day) but already beating and flowing back deep within me already. Couple the right direction to look with the right heart to digest, understand and compartmentalise and you have what the Bible would call....

 

..i want to stop there. Out of respect to our Mr casino and other believers that took a different road to perhaps what will eventually be the same destination, i feel i could become blasphemous and disrespectful and am not prepared to be so.

 

Every lesson, every gift, every foresight of hindsight is already before and within us, we don't need vocal vehicles, we need our own eyes and hearts (Sorry, this is beginning to sound like i'm preaching lol). I mean that nature/the animal kingdom (to concentrate on just those facets) hold the lessons of compassion and devotion, unity and selfless sacrifice as well as the cruelty and wild untamed abandonment of a ferocious singular anarchy and i think that our belief that we are superior to all is not the only but certainly one of the most rudimentary things, holding us back from important steps forward toward the enlightenment we seek.

Superiority, as a concept, is the thing that i have the biggest problem with comprehending and accepting, be it our superiority over everything mother nature and the universe has created through evolutionary journeys over billions and billions of years before we even took one step on ours (our self importance is staggering) or a superior being, as ultimately, ultimate superiority in itself is utter stagnation with an inability to progress farther and that is something that just doesn't, for want of a better word...fit (imho).

Debate, here, pivots on the fine edge of definition and the intended destination of my words may well be hijacked by our differing definitions of certain words i use, so with that in mind, i do hope that i have not insulted or hurt anyone in any way and also, that i have made at least some sense to someone, be it the former, then please accept my apologies.
 

 

My life, as my belief system (as it should be), is a work-in-progress, so these moments are precious...nice to chat Mr oblomov

 

The warmest of regards and wishes...

 

..icey

 

 

 

A 'PS' plucked from the paragraphs above...

 

[Old Hippy Alert]
Mankind's self awareness has been banded and branded as that which separates and lifts him above the rest of the animal kingdom, a self awareness rope that i believe he then hangs himself with in the process. I do have to kick myself for being naughty as i stifle a snigger, when i hear very kind hearted and well meaning people shine in self-righteous emblazoned pride as they 'save the planet' (in an oxymoron with progress), for true self awareness would nullify the equation (don't get me started lol). It is our 'progress' which damages our environment and cleaning up after (or before) ourselves is a social and environmental prerequisite to progress, not something to pat ourselves on the back for once the horses have bolted (another lesson from mother nature that we should be learning).

 

It is we who are the infestation, the living breathing planet the host and attrition by illness and disease the weapon nature has to combat our sheer numbers. We, being our own worse enemy, of course aid in mother nature's war to keep balance but then we would do well to remember that life itself is a battle to survive another day, right from the first moment of conception. When one is fighting to the death (as inevitably we all are) one weapon of mass destruction is very much the same as another. The fatal blow and how it was dealt, should not be our main focus through the campaign we wage (we may or may not be inadvertently drafted as such for another), it should be how we choose to conduct ourselves (for it is that choice and the freedom of ability to execute it, that supposedly separates us from the so called 'inferior kingdoms'). But (can one start a sentence with 'but'?) rather we fight our natural instincts and try to change the rules to fit our own visions of what is important, which is a tool of progress i suppose and it is only to be expected that individual importance differs from that of the whole but, to me, my natural instincts (by which i live by) tell me that the 'state' in which we return the life-force we borrow back to the balance, is the only thing of real importance (of course a little fun along the way is always nice lol). [/Old Hippy Alert]
 

[iceman]

Spent a night watching Jans brother die an horrific death in hospital from lung cancer two days after the funeral of her mother who also suffered a very long time.When you see someone take a last breath and become free from months and months of suffering and pain at last then it gets you thinking and I did think while holding his hand and putting his oxygen mask back on every time he tried to rip it off , Do I believe in God ? do I fcuk and if he did exist he's nothing but a bastard in my view. Just had my Athiest views reinforced yet again 👍. The worst bit is I will now sit in a church and listen to a vicar telling me how great and loving and wonderfull this God is. Oh yes him that created cancer, Lukemea and Ebloa and so on for a laugh, What did they do to deserve that from this God ? Just the same as the youngster who played in my garden with my youngster who this God decided needed killing off with Lukemea despite all the prayers from hundreds in our church at the time,the reason I now think it's a joke. Made up crap to help some people deal with life and then death. Happy Christmas to you also fella, We will have to agree to disagree for ever I think 👍🙂 I do hope I meet this God of yours so I can tell him what I think of him before he sends me to burn for being such a bad bastard 😂

 

 

    [/For when actions are louder than words]

[KurtVerbose]

Norway is such a civilised country. There are now more non-believers than believers.

 

39 per cent said "no" when asked whether they believed, compared to 37 per cent who said "yes", while the remaining 23 per cent said they did not know.

 

When the question was first asked in 1985, a full 50 per cent said they believed in God while only one-fifth said they did not.

 

And Jan-Paul Brekke of Ipsos Norway, who led the survey, said that since they started asking 30 years ago "the percentage of those who said they aren't sure has been about the same".

 

The figures mark a clear change from just two years ago, when the number of believers versus non-believers was still equal.

 

In the country's capital, Oslo, only 29 per cent said they were believers, while the sparsely-populated county of Vest-Agder in the north-west had the most believers at 44 per cent.

 

 

The human race seems to at last be growing up and stopping believing in all this made up nonsense.

 

Or the fires of hell are going to be busy.

 

Edited by KurtVerbose, 22 March 2016 - 09:22 AM.

[casino]

Waaaahaaay. Back specially for Easter, no doubt by popular demand, the great Do you believe in God thread. Staring ...God. With support from Casino. Right, Where exactly has this long running debate got to? Who wants to talk about Easter? Rising from the dead and all that? Who wants to talk Easter Eggs instead? What about Hot Cross Buns? Bring it on, happy Easter ...

[ghand]

Hi fella 👍 As requested😂😂 Raising from the dead, was he dead ? How do you know he was dead. Loads of soldiers in the first world war got buried in coffins as dead but years later when they re located them they found signs that they had come back alive and scratched the coffin lids to get out.Also which particular account of the event do you yourself believe in. Loads of complealtly different accounts as far as I have read. Who found him for one. Just Mary on her own, Mary and her mates, one of the guys and the angel who moved the stone, a guy in white robes, still dark, early morning, late afternoon and loads of other major discrepancies in the story's, one account had a earth quake moving the stone, funny none of the others felt it 👍 I can't remember them all now but could Google it 😂 Do you just choose any ? Plus he was put in the wrong place as it was near and on the wrong day due to the events happening on the next day, some big celebration I can't remember so was probably put in a temporary place then moved by the undertaker guys 👍😄 Yes I have I been on the scotch 👍😂😂😂😂 .

Edited by ghand, 22 March 2016 - 11:52 PM.

[Andrew aka Stuwy]

Waaaahaaay. Back specially for Easter, no doubt by popular demand, the great Do you believe in God thread. Staring ...God. With support from Casino. Right, Where exactly has this long running debate got to? Who wants to talk about Easter? Rising from the dead and all that? Who wants to talk Easter Eggs instead? What about Hot Cross Buns? Bring it on, happy Easter ...

 

I'm no longer talking with you about God stuff. You win. Congratulations.

[ghand]

Drunken ramblings 😂 The jist being four different accounts in four different gospels ? Come on someone coming back from the dead would get very very similar reports in my view. Feast of the Passover and it's organising got in the way of the burial I believe. So he was put in a temporary place. That would do it 👍😂

[ghand]

Waaaahaaay. Back specially for Easter, no doubt by popular demand, the great Do you believe in God thread. Staring ...God. With support from Casino. Right, Where exactly has this long running debate got to? Who wants to talk about Easter? Rising from the dead and all that? Who wants to talk Easter Eggs instead? What about Hot Cross Buns? Bring it on, happy Easter ...

  I'm no longer talking with you about God stuff. You win. Congratulations.

Oh no he doesn't 👍😂 This goes on for ever, well until it all goes black and your dead or on a long walk down to the fires of hell for being a bad boy and not getting on your knees to worship some egotistical creator of cancer and Ebola 😄

[slindborg]

Zombie Jesus

[casino]

Be easier to talk about Easter Eggs. And Stuwy will still talk to me. Seems there are as many accounts of Easter as there are Easter eggs in the high street. Can't argue with the confusion caused. Let me have a think ...don't go away.. Normal Service resumed soon

[KurtVerbose]

I have a friend who's parents are christians, his brother's a priest and he was a little bit christian. Over the past few years he's wised up and now thinks it's a load of crap. It's quite amazing seeing the transformation, and hearing saying that religion is stupid and lazy way of thinking and allows you to be manipulated.

 

Anyway - easter - yes, glad of the holiday. Feel sorry for the poor bloke who got nailed, that's not nice even if we're not sure he existed. When on the cross didn't he say 'my God, why have you forsaken me?'. I guess when he says that you either have to realise that he was a false prophet or make up some story that he came back to life?

 

Why do people believe this crap?

[ghand]

Be easier to talk about Easter Eggs. And Stuwy will still talk to me. Seems there are as many accounts of Easter as there are Easter eggs in the high street. Can't argue with the confusion caused. Let me have a think ...don't go away.. Normal Service resumed soon

Yep you clear up the confusion for me, its about time someone did 👍😂 I like the Angel moving the stone version 👍 Unless Marry was a body builder or had access to a fork lift truck 😂 Then she would also need lights as it was still dark ! oh hang on, no it wasn't it was afternoon, oh you sort it 👍😂😂😂

[ghand]

Casino You never did get back to me over the confusion with the guy that threw his money away and went into the field to top himself ? You remember one apostle says he saw him hang himself while the other says he saw him fall onto rocks and spill his intestines all over the place. Did they not have Spec Savers in them days. Rule 1. What making up tales clear the events with your mates 👍😂 It stops loads of confusion hundreds of years later 😄

[hairy]

Zombie Jesus

 

brains....

[iceman]

Norway is such a civilised country. There are now more non-believers than believers.

 

39 per cent said "no" when asked whether they believed, compared to 37 per cent who said "yes", while the remaining 23 per cent said they did not know.

 

When the question was first asked in 1985, a full 50 per cent said they believed in God while only one-fifth said they did not.

 

And Jan-Paul Brekke of Ipsos Norway, who led the survey, said that since they started asking 30 years ago "the percentage of those who said they aren't sure has been about the same".

 

The figures mark a clear change from just two years ago, when the number of believers versus non-believers was still equal.

 

In the country's capital, Oslo, only 29 per cent said they were believers, while the sparsely-populated county of Vest-Agder in the north-west had the most believers at 44 per cent.

 

 

The human race seems to at last be growing up and stopping believing in all this made up nonsense.

 

Or the fires of hell are going to be busy.

 

 

 

Good Morning Good Sir.

 

I believe that it is precisely because! of our ability to believe in something that can not yet be proven by our known senses, that we as a race have 'grown up' to where we are today. In a mere three hundred years the world, as we know it, is understood as a far far different place, the fuel that fired that search and discovery, is a belief in there being more out there, which i guess is a shared motivation of both science and religion.

 

It is a mistake (in my mad mind lol) to think that the human body merely consists of just skin and bone, we have discovered that everything we thought we ever knew about anything, always holds more steps of discovery to take and i believe the human body and spirit to be no different.

 

It's not so much what! you believe in but more the fact that you can have trust in the faith that there is! more.

 

 

Best regards my friend...

 

..icey    

[casino]

Casino You never did get back to me over the confusion with the guy that threw his money away and went into the field to top himself ? You remember one apostle says he saw him hang himself while the other says he saw him fall onto rocks and spill his intestines all over the place. Did they not have Spec Savers in them days. Rule 1. What making up tales clear the events with your mates 👍😂 It stops loads of confusion hundreds of years later 😄

Sorry about that Sir, was taken up with my silly plastic car and a puncture I thought was the end of another set of Speedlines. There's loads of differing accounts, goes hand in hand with the passage of time. What's important isn't so much the detail or details but the overall fact of death not being the end of things. How many different forms of Christianity can you name? Cat-licks, Proddies, Baptists? That's mankind all over.

[KurtVerbose]

It is a mistake (in my mad mind lol) to think that the human body merely consists of just skin and bone, we have discovered that everything we thought we ever knew about anything, always holds more steps of discovery to take and i believe the human body and spirit to be no different.  

It's not so much what! you believe in but more the fact that you can have trust in the faith that there is! more.

 

 

Best regards my friend...

 

..icey

 

Sorry Icey, I agree with you on lots of things but not that. Sure, there's an awful lot we don't understand. but there's simply no evidence or even logic that we exist as anything but biological entities, and any talk about spirits or soul's is just human's making up fairy stories.

 

Best regards to you also -  

[iceman]

 

It is a mistake (in my mad mind lol) to think that the human body merely consists of just skin and bone, we have discovered that everything we thought we ever knew about anything, always holds more steps of discovery to take and i believe the human body and spirit to be no different.   It's not so much what! you believe in but more the fact that you can have trust in the faith that there is! more.     Best regards my friend...   ..icey

  Sorry Icey, I agree with you on lots of things but not that. Sure, there's an awful lot we don't understand. but there's simply no evidence or even logic that we exist as anything but biological entities, and any talk about spirits or soul's is just human's making up fairy stories.   Best regards to you also -

 

Good Evening. Not a problem at all, it is nice to be able to agree to disagree, amicably. There of course is no definitive right or wrong but i believe that a very important implement in the tool-box of the human condition, is the ability to keep and open mind to all possibilities. Have a nice weekend good sir... ..icey