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The Referendum - In Or Out


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#1721 Jetpilot

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Posted 31 January 2019 - 05:15 PM

 

 

Change will only come about after a slow evolution

 

 

Or some others decide/vote to leave, we may be the first*, but we wont be the last i am sure of that!

 

 

 

* pending  :D



#1722 techieboy

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 11:28 PM




:lol:

#1723 The Batman

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Posted 11 February 2019 - 11:55 PM

Welcome back techieboy!!

#1724 LY_Scott

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 09:42 AM

Can't see how we avoid no deal at this point. The MP's won't vote for May's deal and the EU would be stupid to accept an extension without any plan while the UK would be involved in their EU elections making them a dangerous farce.

 

April 12th no deal is my £10 bet

 

Stock up on dried foods.



#1725 jonnyboy

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 10:13 AM

I think no deal would be the best way forward at this point. Second referendum although I would support the idea personally I think it would result in civil unrest as those on the 52% side would feel very strongly about being ignored. Remainders tend to be more measured folk unfortunately so I can't see the same thing happening to get a vote forced. 

 

As time has gone on I don't see no deal as a cliff edge or anything to be particularly afraid of. As I have said before no deal is not "no deal" no deal is just not an agreed framework and instead it's the start of a lot of diplomacy and a lot of smaller deals. My bet would be an interim trade agreement and 2 year implementation. Emergency agreement for the Irish border. Ultimately Ireland is the big unresolvable issue that will never be sorted out. It's possible to use tech to deal with goods but what about people? If you have a border you have a border and that issue will rumble on probably past all of our time on this planet. 

 

The worst possible outcome is delay. Theresa May in her TV statement gets it and I share her frustration with Parliament. It is their fault and they have made a fcuk of it because of infighting and that's on all sides of the house. Although not a Conservative supporter (sick in the mouth) I think May has been 100% right in everything she has done and said with regards to Brexit and history I hope will judge her very well as doing a stirling job in the face of opposition from every angle. She is a real hero in my book. 

 

They don't seem to realise it but the big losers in all of this are going to be the big names. Johnson/Gove/Corbyn I hope they all loose their seats at the next GE which should be treated as a protest vote and cleansing exercise by people of all political persuasions. 

 

UK Politics is in real crisis at the moment and is in dire need of a reboot!  



#1726 Jetpilot

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 11:29 AM

^^^ Spot on, the reality is now parliament should be voting on the deal or no deal, not some other bias agenda to try and get in power, 2nd ref or indicative votes, we keep getting told by the eu this is the "deal"; i grow increasingly frustrated with various mp's wanting this that or the other, including members of the tory party.

 

I also find it a massive irony that the snp keep banging their drum about the UK when they dont want to be a part of it and the reality that if we do leave, might be their best option to getting another mandate for their 2nd once in a lifetime vote............. in 4/5 years 

 

Carloine Lucas with her one seat in parliament banging her peoples vote drum, its quite clear by your one seat you have no idea what the people want, same could be said for Lib Dem

 

Parliament voted pretty much unanimously to sign article 50, get on and do what you voted for, the referendum became obsolete at that point!

 

 



#1727 coldel

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 11:48 AM

No deal might not mean much to most of us on here who can afford a nice weekend car, the danger sits very much in the bottom 3m or so households in terms of income where a few extra pounds a week on food, energy or other necessities could push them over the edge. Somewhat ironically they are the people most likely to have voted leave also.



#1728 LY_Scott

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 01:50 PM

I also find it a massive irony that the snp keep banging their drum about the UK when they dont want to be a part of it and the reality that if we do leave, might be their best option to getting another mandate for their 2nd once in a lifetime vote............. in 4/5 years


It's a tough one for those of us seeking Scottish Independence. It's not in our interest that our neighbour's economy collapses. In the 2014 referendum white paper plan both Scotland and the rUK would've remained in the EU making trade not really part of that discussion. If Scotland were to leave and stay in the EU, its trading relationship with the rest of the UK will be based on whatever deal the UK can negotiate with the EU in this moment.

Also the mathmatics on where independence vote sits with some who backed indy in 2014 saying they wouldn't if it means staying in the EU etc. Personally I think an EFTA arrangement suits Scotland and there are mumblings out this as an offer coming from the Nordic countries once this part of the mess is clearer and agreed.

It's not over yet by a long shot. The SNP are also playing a good game of I told you so too, the louder they shout to stay in the EU during this time the easier it is to say...look we told you this would happen when it all goes south.

No deal is a disaster, there's no sign of any frameworks that you are talking about Jon. Have a good friends in the fishing industry who has been called by the environment agency around exporting goods to Europe as no deal, they lose their passporting rights under no deal. There is no framework on day one for selling the shellfish into europe. Boats tied up and factories not open, lorries not transporting etc etc. That's just one industry. It's exactly the same for farming.

#1729 coldel

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 02:02 PM

The EU stated this morning, to confirm their ongoing stance, no deal means implementing the WTO framework, which is not the best position to be if you are used to a free market and tariff free borders - just in time operating models need to change (and that doesn't mean supermarkets 'stocking up' or whatever nonsense the government comes out with on subjects they know nothing about!) to manage a new trading environment. 



#1730 JG

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 02:19 PM

Can't see how we avoid no deal at this point. The MP's won't vote for May's deal and the EU would be stupid to accept an extension without any plan while the UK would be involved in their EU elections making them a dangerous farce.

 

April 12th no deal is my £10 bet

 

Stock up on dried foods.

 

I'll happily take you up on your bet. 

 

I just can't see no deal happening. 

 

I think what is more likely is this order of events:

-New timetable for parliamentary votes to be issued today

-Reject MV3 tomorrow or Wednesday

-Statutory instrument to change exit day from 29th March to 12th April on the same day

-Indicative votes a day after MV3 and SI. Wednesday or Thursday

-Indicative votes will push towards a soft Brexit (by this time petition will be nearing 8m)

-That will lead to a request to delay long term

-Cons will implode, resulting in either a caretaker PM or date for May to go by and be replaced after internal election

-UK will take part in European elections

-Pretty soon, deadlock with Cons Brexiloons will result in referendum

-Referendum will result in remain. 

-Some low level, think 2011 Riots, may follow, small price to pay for good sense. 



#1731 JG

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Posted 25 March 2019 - 02:35 PM

btw, this thread is pathetic. 1018 pages on the Seloc one. :P :D



#1732 Jetpilot

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Posted 26 March 2019 - 07:58 AM

Removing views from Brexit as such, is it right that mp's who have resigned, from any party, should still remain in parliament, they were voted in to their seat on a party manifesto, surely if they resign from said party, they should give up their seat? 



#1733 Crazyfrog (Fab)

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Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:05 AM

It is a bloody mess. 😂

#1734 JG

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Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:18 AM

Removing views from Brexit as such, is it right that mp's who have resigned, from any party, should still remain in parliament, they were voted in to their seat on a party manifesto, surely if they resign from said party, they should give up their seat?


They are resigning government positions (and potentially ruining a career at the same time). They are not resigning their positions as MPs.

They shouldn’t give up their seat for voting against the government. That would lead to chaos (well even more chaos, if that is possible)

#1735 coldel

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Posted 26 March 2019 - 09:36 AM

MPs are elected as representatives, not as delegates. When you vote for an MP in elections you tick against their name where it also shows they represent a party. As they are elected as individuals i.e. tick against their name, they are free to represent their constituents in whatever way they like once they are in parliament. 

 

For example I wrote to my local MP who is a Tory about the Heathrow runway decision, even though the Tories made the decision to choose Heathrow he is fighting against that decision on the constituents behalf.



#1736 WrightStuff

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Posted 26 March 2019 - 01:31 PM

 

Removing views from Brexit as such, is it right that mp's who have resigned, from any party, should still remain in parliament, they were voted in to their seat on a party manifesto, surely if they resign from said party, they should give up their seat?


They are resigning government positions (and potentially ruining a career at the same time). They are not resigning their positions as MPs.

They shouldn’t give up their seat for voting against the government. That would lead to chaos (well even more chaos, if that is possible)

 

 

I think he is talking about the defectors to the Independent Group. Chuka, Soubry and the like.

Have to say I agree. You shouldn't be able to switch allegiances and keep your seat.



#1737 slindborg

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Posted 26 March 2019 - 01:48 PM

There is no framework on day one for selling the shellfish into europe. Boats tied up and factories not open, lorries not transporting etc etc. That's just one industry. It's exactly the same for farming.

 

 

Well, that means we (the UK) get shellfish... I dont see the problem there :)

 

Seasonal goods/foods at sensible prices. Phackin out out

 

Nope, In In.

 

Ah sod it.



#1738 coldel

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Posted 26 March 2019 - 04:06 PM

 

 

Removing views from Brexit as such, is it right that mp's who have resigned, from any party, should still remain in parliament, they were voted in to their seat on a party manifesto, surely if they resign from said party, they should give up their seat?


They are resigning government positions (and potentially ruining a career at the same time). They are not resigning their positions as MPs.

They shouldn’t give up their seat for voting against the government. That would lead to chaos (well even more chaos, if that is possible)

 

 

I think he is talking about the defectors to the Independent Group. Chuka, Soubry and the like.

Have to say I agree. You shouldn't be able to switch allegiances and keep your seat.

 

 

I would tend to disagree, as above you don't vote in a party to represent you, you vote in an individual. If the individual changes sides then you have the option at the next vote to vote them out. In a more grand scale a party has a manifesto, usually only a percentage of that manifesto is implemented if in government but there is no expectation that the government steps down if it changes its mind. At the next general election you can look at that government behaviour and influence which party is in by voting accordingly. 



#1739 Jetpilot

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Posted 26 March 2019 - 04:40 PM

When you vote for an MP in elections you tick against their name where it also shows they represent a party.

 

I appreciate i am voting for an individual, but as you say, they are an individual representing a party, whilst ever i may be ticking there name it is the party i am voting for, not the representative imho There is a reason they represent whatever party because they believe in their manifesto, when they give up representing that party because they dont agree with its politics or manifesto, they should give up their seat. I also understand i have the option to cast my vote another way next time round, if i am ever likely to vote again with all this recent nonsense.

 

Are the individual parties concerned within their rights to call for a by election when they gave up their seat?

 

If you ever decided to quit your job would you expect to go in and have your say on how they do things?



#1740 coldel

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Posted 26 March 2019 - 04:59 PM

 

When you vote for an MP in elections you tick against their name where it also shows they represent a party.

 

I appreciate i am voting for an individual, but as you say, they are an individual representing a party, whilst ever i may be ticking there name it is the party i am voting for, not the representative imho There is a reason they represent whatever party because they believe in their manifesto, when they give up representing that party because they dont agree with its politics or manifesto, they should give up their seat. I also understand i have the option to cast my vote another way next time round, if i am ever likely to vote again with all this recent nonsense.

 

Are the individual parties concerned within their rights to call for a by election when they gave up their seat?

 

If you ever decided to quit your job would you expect to go in and have your say on how they do things?

 

 

I get that people 'think' they are voting in a party but they are voting in an individual - some people think they are getting a faster Audi in S-Line trim but they are getting an Audi with nicer interior. What people think they are voting for isn't really the debate, its that they have voted in a person who has stood in the constituency and spoken about how they intend to run things - this will follow roughly a party line but will be adapted to the constituency i.e. Zac Goldsmith always campaigned in the last election run up to block Heathrow which contravenes the Government stance. They do no oppose a manifesto, it is pretty well aligned, but it may be that MPs do not agree on a particular policy.

 

Quitting my job is different, if I quit my job that would be the same as an MP quitting being an MP - which isn't whats happening here, they are staying within their job but moving department for a better analogy.






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