1815 replies to this topic

[C8RKH]

I totally agree @Ormes and yet the same old shite is regurgitated by the same people to supposedly enlighten leavers of their ignorance.

I voted leave, like you, because I do not want to be a part of a Federal EU state and I don't want a significant proportion of my hard earned taxes to be used to subsidise others when we have enough to fix in this country already.

I wonder sometimes if the Remaine4s have actually thought through what the EU's direction of travel will mean in the future. I very much doubt it. Just as they think we believed the cool aid adverts on the bus, they've been blindly drinking the EU Cool aid and all most of them can offer up as the reason to stay is:

1. We don't know the deal so we need to stay
2. Oooh. But it might be hard so we need to stay
3. The youngsters voted to stay so we need to stay
4. We'll have to trade on our own so we have to stay

That's about it from what I can see. So Leave voted to take a chance, remain voted to hide behind the sofa, eyes closed.

[jonnyboy]

The thing now though is that all the good arguments for leaving and staying are going to be blown away. 

 

The best outcome for leavers is looking like a Norway option so we are in a customs union. Now as a committed remainer what the frig point is there in "leaving" the EU to then stay in a customs union? If we are going to leave let's just bloody leave! How is this option palatable for Brexiteers? We have to adopt all the rules without a seat at the table and are not able to have our own magical trade deals with all these countries that are supposedly queueing up. 

 

May had the best deal and its been canned for political reasons only. 

 

The whole thing has been a total bollocks. Ireland will never be resolved now no matter what happens it's a totally impossible conundrum. 

 

People fear change and sorry to say but what's really wrong with a united states of Europe? Worked out ok for the USA. In the face of the rise of the East we are always going to be better off in a bigger club. The EU does have it's issues and we have certainly wounded the EU possibly even fatally with our departure. They only now really have France and Germany contributing net. It was a great project I still think we would have been better off in but right at this moment I think they should refuse our extension and we just come out. No deal is not a cliff edge that's just totally stupid rhetoric that has come from all sides of the debate. Repeal article 50 or leave with no deal. Whichever it is JUST GET ON WITH IT! 

 

The bigger issue we have in this country at the moment isn't even Brexit it's the fact that the last 2-3 years has shown us that we have a totally fcuked political system and no hope of any strong leadership from either side of the spectrum to pull us out of the mess. 

 

Come back Tony Blair! 

[WrightStuff]

People fear change and sorry to say but what's really wrong with a united states of Europe? Worked out ok for the USA. 

 

Plenty wrong with it.

When you promote a suicidal immigration policy.

When you try to homogenise across values, cultures, beliefs and history.

When you try to combine massively disparate economies under the same single currency.

When you try to centralise power and kill nationalism.

 

...you are heading for massive civil unrest at best, wars at worst.

[jonnyboy]

When you promote a suicidal immigration policy.

 

Suicidal? Tell me that when you are in a nursing home needing a bum wipe Free movement is something our generation have not liked but our kids would not have thought about it. I'm sad now for my kids because as much as Brexit was largely voted for by people in working class areas like where I live because they don't like Eastern Europeans but what about the opportunities afforded to all the UK people that can walk into jobs in Germany or wherever. It' a two way street but our people are getting top jobs overseas not like immigrants here that are picking veg. 

 

When you try to homogenise across values, cultures, beliefs and history.

 

Well this is something that people need to try and do while maintaining their heritage. We are half vikings anyway. Go back far enough we are nothing but mongrels. 

 

When you try to combine massively disparate economies under the same single currency.

 

Well this is the wonderful part of the project. Spain/Italy/Portugal etc have not utilised the EU as well as they might but take somewhere like Poland. They come in at the bottom and now their country's standards are improving so much that many of the people that came here to work are returning because the prospects are better. Develop the poorer country it turns into a market for us that wasn't there before. 

 

When you try to centralise power and kill nationalism.

 

This is the big mis sell of the EU. Yes it centralising some power but it's power that we were a top influencer of and had not just a seat at the table. In fact we probably leased the table to Germany! People obsessed with power should realise that it's not Brussells exerting power and influence over us we are spreading OUR influence through the whole of Europe. 

 

The EU are certainly wounded by our departure they have a huge hole in the budget to fill for sure. The thing is is we fatally hurt the EU it will by extension hurt us. 

 

We should be going the other way.. in the Euro/homologated Army the works. Why not? Some out dated nationalistic pride? Why? Will that make our prospects better when China decide they want a European outpost? 

 

I think our prospects are still good out of the EU we still have enough stolen colonial money to keep us going for a couple of generations. The bigger worry is the damage we have inflicted on the EU. 

[Jetpilot]

 

When you promote a suicidal immigration policy.

 

Suicidal? Tell me that when you are in a nursing home needing a bum wipe Free movement is something our generation have not liked but our kids would not have thought about it. I'm sad now for my kids because as much as Brexit was largely voted for by people in working class areas like where I live because they don't like Eastern Europeans but what about the opportunities afforded to all the UK people that can walk into jobs in Germany or wherever. It' a two way street but our people are getting top jobs overseas not like immigrants here that are picking veg. 

n the EU. 

 

 

I dont think any rational brexiteer (awaits a comment) has any issue with immigration, but just controlled, whats wrong with that? 

 

If this fiasco had been sorted properly people from the UK would still be going abroad to work and people from the Eu would be coming here to work, i really dont see that as a problem, the only problem is it dispels the myth that us Brexiteers are xenophobic and or racist and remainers wouldnt have to climb down off the pedestal and not have much "ammunition".

[jonnyboy]

Define controls though. The market has dictated where the jobs are. If there were "controls" we would have some sort of crisis going on somewhere in the economy probably in distribution, healthcare and agriculture. Plus costa.

We don't have droves of Polish people coming over taking over our engineering or middle management positions they are largely filling in the gaps between proper jobs and benefits trapped people.

[coldel]

Immigration is a confusing issue when used as a view of it being controlled. Often 'control' will be then linked to photos of people arriving on boats or in the backs of lorries, lets be honest, these people are coming whether we are in the EU or not, so all irrelevant. In terms of legal immigration, all the studies show that on a cost-benefit analysis immigration benefits the country financially much more than not, the only issue really is housing which the government should be doing more about (reducing offshore owned properties, affordable housing etc.) but the idea that 'they take our jobs' etc. is just rhetoric made up by the likes of the EDL and regurgitated without any investigation by the general public. Immigrants pay more tax than Britons per head and (if they are from what you might call Eastern Europe) are often overqualified for their jobs they take up, many skilled-manual workers have university degrees which makes this whole idea of a points based entry system a bit of a farce and badly thought out. 

 

For me the failure has been over the last 20 or 30 years of the EU to properly promote itself, all the good work they put in to promote business, workers rights, human rights, employment legislation and so on. Additionally you have found a political mindset here that found it easier to win votes by playing good cop bad cop between themselves and the EU when it suited them. The housing crisis has been in play for some time, reducing immigration with draconian measures will help, but only marginally, there still needs large scale action from the government to sorting affordable housing out. 

[christhegasman]

The thing now though is that all the good arguments for leaving and staying are going to be blown away.

The best outcome for leavers is looking like a Norway option so we are in a customs union. Now as a committed remainer what the frig point is there in "leaving" the EU to then stay in a customs union? If we are going to leave let's just bloody leave! How is this option palatable for Brexiteers? We have to adopt all the rules without a seat at the table and are not able to have our own magical trade deals with all these countries that are supposedly queueing up.

May had the best deal and its been canned for political reasons only.

The whole thing has been a total bollocks. Ireland will never be resolved now no matter what happens it's a totally impossible conundrum.

People fear change and sorry to say but what's really wrong with a united states of Europe? Worked out ok for the USA. In the face of the rise of the East we are always going to be better off in a bigger club. The EU does have it's issues and we have certainly wounded the EU possibly even fatally with our departure. They only now really have France and Germany contributing net. It was a great project I still think we would have been better off in but right at this moment I think they should refuse our extension and we just come out. No deal is not a cliff edge that's just totally stupid rhetoric that has come from all sides of the debate. Repeal article 50 or leave with no deal. Whichever it is JUST GET ON WITH IT!

The bigger issue we have in this country at the moment isn't even Brexit it's the fact that the last 2-3 years has shown us that we have a totally fcuked political system and no hope of any strong leadership from either side of the spectrum to pull us out of the mess.

Come back Tony Blair!

Can’t really argue with most of that Jon except the last 4 words 😀
But in reality we did vote for a customs union ( common market ) in 76 we never voted or had a say in anything else our beloved leaders thought we wanted so I could except going back to a trade agreement if need be but as you say whatever let’s jyst get on with it

[Jetpilot]

Define controls though

 

Anything whichever elected government decides, its that simple.

Edited by Jetpilot, 01 April 2019 - 11:40 AM.

[coldel]

 

Define controls though

 

Anything whichever elected government decides, its that simple.

 

 

Being out gives government the opportunity to propose ideas of their own free will but it does not equate to 'control'. The EU will tend to demand the same proposals of its partners as the partners demand of them in terms of immigration, so if we want to be able to go and work/live in the EU (of which millions of Britons do) then we have to reciprocate. We cannot just decide we will cut immigration for example down to X and thats it as the government has to balance that off against its own citizens desire and need to work in the EU also.

 

But yes, there is more control, but it isn't full control and will still be a negotiated end result which we do not have full control of. As mentioned the world is globalised and any agreement will be made with concessions on both sides the weight of which will be dictated by the leverage each side has, as per any negotiation. 

[christhegasman]

so if we want to be able to go and work/live in the EU (of which millions of Britons do) then we have to reciprocate.

I have no issue with anyone who wants to work ? But I don't think many of us have or would ever be welcome in another country EU or not if we were unable to support ourselves didn't want to work and had no medical insurance

[jonnyboy]

It gets better then with a Norway option. Not only can we not strike up all these amazing trade deals that are apparently waiting for us. Norway participate in which scheme was it again? You know that one where people can still come in and this time they don't even need a passport? I literally can't believe that they are debating this in Parliament. Walk away from Mays deal which is free and clear of everything with a fixed invoice for it or hang about waiting for scraps on the sidelines of the EU without a seat at the table and still paying into the EU and still accepting free movement. What the actual fcuk point is there in that? 

 

If we are leaving let's just bloody leave!  

 

 

Edited by jonnyboy, 01 April 2019 - 02:29 PM.

[coldel]

There is a myth surrounding immigrants here saying they do not work, but its been shown that they pay more tax and as a percentage i.e. immigrants vs non-immigrants are much more likely to be in work, mostly doing roles which are lower in 'grade' than they are qualified for. They are putting a lot more in than they get out in terms of providing funding to the government and ensuring things like our pensioners keep getting their money each week. The benefit to them is the pay is relatively higher than their home country so accept the lower skilled roles. 

 

The EU rules on immigration are also not completely free of rules themselves. If you move to another EU state you cannot claim anything for three months, after that if you are not working and not contributing then you can be removed. It's not a free for all Farage et al might want people to think it is. 

 

Anyway, the challenge is now to work out what to do next - the farce of it all is that no one wants May's deal because of the backstop but 1. no one has an alternative 2. MP's cannot even get a majority on a number of alternatives. Basically, we are a shambles and if this is anything to go by getting trade deals with other large economic blocks like the US and China are going to be equally farcical. 

Edited by coldel, 01 April 2019 - 02:34 PM.

[Jetpilot]

I have plenty of faith in getting trade deals as that will be down to the governing party (if we actually leave), NOT a bunch of mp's with their own agenda which you have said yourself are point scoring and trying to advance their political career and that includes all parties.

[coldel]

But the government came up with a negotiated EU exit deal which pretty much everyone has derided - what evidence do we have that they will fare any better when it comes to the bigger stuff?

[Jetpilot]

We dont, but as mentioned elsewhere, i am happy to take that risk rather than just accept this is as good as it gets with being in the Eu. I dont fear change and would be happy to have no deal, its what i voted for.

[coldel]

Remainer's don't fear change either, but many did not believe that the utopia promised was achievable nor will we end up anywhere near it. As someone who has lived abroad in a number of different countries, taken high financial risks, had to work in different cultures, I am not averse to change - but I also feel if there is a fairly high percentage chance of a massive balls up which, even if it works gives very little back, I am happy to side step it. 

[Nev]

Golly, so many words...

 

If you actually want to effect a change, become a political advisor, or "better" still, become an MP. Until then, your words have no efficacy. Ranting to the ether has no effect, even for the supercilious.

 

We are all dots in the panacea... best to remember that, and get on with that which you can effect.

 

WWFN

Edited by Nev, 01 April 2019 - 07:20 PM.

[jonnyboy]

Well another set of votes and still no consensus. 

 

The country is utterly split. Parliament is split. 

 

What a calamitous situation we are in. 

 

I think realistically the time has come where MPs need to have a free vote and just either vote for May's deal/No deal or a public vote. They surely now have a public duty to dispose with party politics for the first time in this process and remove the whips. 

 

It looks like Parliament has surely exhausted all attempts to find one option with even a hope of gaining some kind of traction. So 3 years of Brexiteer meddling they still haven't come up with a plan. 

 

No deal unfortunately looks like unless the EU hand it to us (hardly likely) we are in for at least a 12 month delay and another pubic vote and/or a general election plus months and months of uncertainty and continued hammering of our businesses. 

 

You literally could not have written it as a worst case scenario. 

 

 

 

 

Edited by jonnyboy, 01 April 2019 - 09:20 PM.

[Ormes]

Lots of politicians with very diverse views cause things to stagnate as they can't reach consensus.

I could be taking about the EU or UK! Hopefully the UKs problem will be shorter term.