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#21 FLD

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 10:21 AM

I had this dilemma myself a year or two ago.  I had new OEM links on at the time but constantly had the niggle in my mind.  I also do a very occasional track day with mostly road use.  Over the years I've seen several failures of the OEM ones.  These tend to be related to dry joints applying load to the threaded part, corrosion of the threaded part or cracking in the threads. Whatever happens the result is fairly catastrophic.  It started to eat at my brain so I looked at changing.

 

I considered all options when looking around and read about the failures of aftermarket kits.  I know there's quite some price range on these things!  I opted for spitfires simply because they are damn good.   I've heard of various problems with joints on some kits and I know spitfire joints are one of the best.  I don't consider any part on my car to be maintenance free so check these annually and before / after a track day along with nut and bolt check etc.  So far nothing to report on the links.  It'd be another vote for spitfire here.



#22 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 11:58 AM

Thanks everyone, will go have a think, like I say the cost difference is not small (around £350) and given I drive the car on average around <50 miles a week on the road it would require a serious road incident to break replacement OEM ones. But again thanks, it has cleared up a few things I was mulling over. 

 

Hi

Can I please comment on this, It's not what you have said about your own choice and I'm not trying to convince you in any way but a lot of people read these threads so it is important to clarify the effect of reliability, capability and longevity.

First, the joints you have indicated are very cheap so you are not comparing like for like, the OE version is not so cheap: -  https://www.seriousl...-2003-genuine 

 

The inner joints are usually the worst and the higher risk so you really need to replace all 4 joints not just the outer ones.

The cost of fitting will be similar for both OE or uprated options but the uprated kit needs the brackets fitting as well so an extra 15 mins labour for that.

You could just geo the rear to keep costs down but I don't know how likely it is you would do just this, but erring on the side of "as cheap as possible" to illustrate.

 

So what we are comparing is:

An uprated toe link kit at £335 + del and vat + £414

Fitting according to Chris is about 1.75 hours at £50 hr + vat = £105

Rear Geo £50 + vat = £60

Total £579

 

OE option 4 x cheap joints @£24 + del and vat = £120

fitting 1.5 hrs + vat = £90

Rear Geo £50 + vat = £60

Total £270

 

For the time being you are £309 up though the car is not uprated for track work.

So how long are you going to give the joints before you change them? 3/4 years? let's say 5 years.

 

In 5 years you need another £270 so now you are up to £540 with a £39 difference only.

 

This illustration is based on the cheapest joints, a low labour rate, unlikely actual geo costs and without the price rise you will see over 5 years for the replacement fitment. You will get a 1 year warranty each time assuming you do not track the car otherwise you may find out it is void.

 

By comparison, you will have a lightweight/high strength uprated system with a proven service history and a minimum expected bearing life of 9 years+, but with a 4 year warranty just in case which does include track work.

 

Should you keep the car even longer the financial imbalance just gets worse, the mechanical imbalance is never corrected.

 

I will leave you to work out which is the better option    :D

 

 

 

 

 

ps thanks for the info Chris   :)



#23 gertje

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 01:22 PM

Thé different betwee Elise Parts original and Spitfire ones.
I had change my original ones for Eliseparts drive a half year and change them for Spitfire one's.
Think you can der on thé pictures why?Posted ImagePosted Image

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#24 2-20

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 05:00 PM

I have installed a BOE toe link kit.
The main reason was because one of my hole in the subframe was elongated and a bit ovalized... second reason was some subframe crack repair that would interfere with the additional brackets of splitfire kit.
But I also like the design and weight savings.
There's no failure reported in the US where the kit is common.

Edited by 2-20, 25 June 2019 - 05:01 PM.


#25 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 05:55 PM

I have installed a BOE toe link kit.
The main reason was because one of my hole in the subframe was elongated and a bit ovalized... second reason was some subframe crack repair that would interfere with the additional brackets of splitfire kit.
But I also like the design and weight savings.
There's no failure reported in the US where the kit is common.

 

Where to start? ....    :D



#26 smiley

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 06:50 PM

 

Where to start? ....    :D

 

 

Let the BOE bashing begin. :tt:
 



#27 hairy

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Posted 25 June 2019 - 08:12 PM

The Bank of England makes them? They need to concentrate on getting the country out of the sh!t.



#28 Dan r

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 05:34 AM

Another vote for spitfire...
Top quality components and service.

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#29 2-20

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 06:03 PM


I have installed a BOE toe link kit.
The main reason was because one of my hole in the subframe was elongated and a bit ovalized... second reason was some subframe crack repair that would interfere with the additional brackets of splitfire kit.
But I also like the design and weight savings.
There's no failure reported in the US where the kit is common.


Where to start? .... :D

Oh... In fact I had been the owner of one of your first kit eleven years ago....
This is where I started.
Unfortunately I couldn't install it due to some issues with the quality of a batch of joints.
The joints were eventually replaced but at that time I had somewhat lost confidence in the product and re-sold the kit..
WITHOUT the brace bar, I don't think your kit can address the issue with subframe cracking and I assume it's not better than a BOE kit on this matter...

#30 RC220

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Posted 26 June 2019 - 07:54 PM

I am another Spitfire fan.  I bought their toe-links and will also fit the brace bar between these when I get around to fitting.  I haven't yet figured out which collet to use for this...as the toe link brackets need to go on first. 

I also have the VRSAS kit, as the track rod ends are a nightmare and the bump steer adjustments are at the hub.  This shouldn't be an issue as I don't want to lower the ride height...I unintentionally did this when I fitted Gaz monos last summer but will (hopefully) figure this out when I re-fit them.

I am ashamed to say my car is still on axle stands and in pieces (I started this in Feb...) as life / work has consistently got in the way.  But I am slowly making progress.  My rear calipers are at BCS for re-furb (1 is dead and is beyond re-furb so needs to be replaced with new), I have finally found someone who will shot blast the wishbones and hubs and I now have the POR 15 paint kit to finish these.  And, I finally managed to get some Duralac locally.  For some odd reason this couldn't be shipped by EP to Northern Ireland.  

The Spitfire products are superbly engineered and I have found their sales / after sales to be as good as it gets.  But the proof of the pudding is in the eating...so, more later!  

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#31 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 12:31 PM

I have installed a BOE toe link kit.
The main reason was because one of my hole in the subframe was elongated and a bit ovalized... second reason was some subframe crack repair that would interfere with the additional brackets of splitfire kit.
But I also like the design and weight savings.
There's no failure reported in the US where the kit is common.

 

 

No of course not, the toe links have their functions and the brace has its function. It’s a bit like saying neither toe link option can solve the issues with the immobiliser, but I’m not sure what point you are trying to make by conflating their functions?

We think have made it as easy as possible to allow a brace to fit, with several options and it uses the stability of the brackets as a support but this is not really relevant to the toe link function in isolation.

 

Over the years it is very rare I openly comment on another manufacturers output unless it is dangerous or clearly has a major issue and even then it is more of a hint, i.e when a particular “uprated” kit suffers the same failure multiple times on track.

 

BOE is the only exception and the main issue the false claims, which take a very cheap kit in terms of components, probably the cheapest, and then offer it up as the best by simply telling untruths, which are a complete reversal of the reality.

 

The issues with the BOE kit are several, for starters the poor solution of drilling the subframe and bush (in situ) in order to fit a larger single shear fastener.

If you really wanted to go down this route and didn’t care about the potential subframe problems then it would have been much easier, quicker and cheaper (£4) to simply fit a 10.9 spec M10 bolt (65nm) and keep everything as standard with the reduced possibility of subframe damage as a bonus.

You could also then go back to OE or another uprated kit easily*

By far the best solution is a double shear bracket or another double shear system. These keep the softer bolt which can deform and fail as per the original Lotus design only with a higher percentage due to the bracket.

 

Just about every claim BOE makes on its website is false.

They are the lightest that is for sure, but that is only because the "ultra strong swaged aluminum rods"are actually the weakest of any toe link kit I have ever examined, they don't have steel subframe brackets adding to the weight and the bearings are tiny also, so yes it probably is the lightest.

Their rods are made from 3.96mm wall 6061-T6 (UTS 310 MPa) and at an educated guess are about 40% of the capacity of the 6mm wall 7075 (UTS 572 MPa) Spitfire rods and also considerably weaker than the steel variants from everyone else including OE.

They cost about $15 each.

http://rodendsupply....ply-Catalog.pdf - page 14, ref - 6837XX 7/16"

 

Their â€œcarefully specified heim-joints are self lubricating, non-lined, and are rated over 23,000lbs in strength”

The 23,000 is quite low compared to the 74,000 alloy steel version we use for example, though all the European aftermarket kits should be stronger simply because they are larger and probably made from similar spec steel.

 

“These are among the highest rated heim-joints that will physically fit on the car”

This is almost funny, the bearings BOE use are 7/16" (11.1mm) OE are 12mm, most uprated kits use 1/2" (12.7mm) we use 14mm, so they are the smallest and also the weakest of the uprated kits and will obviously wear quicker as the friction area is much smaller and the subsequent peak loads/area so much higher.

https://www.lotustal...e-links-382873/

 

“over-engineering" 

 

“will have longer service intervals than they would with all other aftermarket toe-link solutions”

 

Clearly rubbish, though I can see how the price with its massive markup of about 300%, offers the illusion of quality, I would guess it is under $120 worth of bits.

The positive is that the parts are so cheap it will not cost very much to replace whatever needs replacing in due course.

 

Too late now but I think a brace fit without the brackets would have been a much better solution for you assuming the panel really cannot take a bracket. The longevity would have been at another level altogether and you would have had the advantage of the optional brace on the subframe as well had you so wished.

 

Regarding the Tuthill bearing problem from 2007, we did issue new bearings to all the owners regardless of if they actually had an issue or not.

We have also over the years offered £100 off of a new kit should the owners of the first generation kits wish to upgrade to the latest spec.

 

I appreciate you lost confidence and it was of course your choice, to highlight our customer service I should point out that the replacement bearings we ordered with aerospace Teflon liners lasted perfectly and should you have wished to upgrade to the latest M14 spec you could have bought a new Spitfire kit for much less than you paid for your BOE kit as well.

 

:)

 

* You can actually recover from the BOE kit to a degree, we have made several kits with a 7/16 inner fastener of a suitable grade, some to Aus and some to Italy so some owners are clearly not so satisfied with the performance?

 

The main reason was because one of my hole in the subframe was elongated and a bit ovalized.

This is not a problem, the bracket solves this problem by removing the contact out to the thick bracket washer


Edited by Spitfire Engineering, 28 June 2019 - 12:35 PM.


#32 Steviejay

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Posted 28 June 2019 - 09:46 PM

Not much more to add to that really haha

#33 2-20

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Posted 29 June 2019 - 03:47 PM

 

I have installed a BOE toe link kit.
The main reason was because one of my hole in the subframe was elongated and a bit ovalized... second reason was some subframe crack repair that would interfere with the additional brackets of splitfire kit.
But I also like the design and weight savings.
There's no failure reported in the US where the kit is common.

 

 

No of course not, the toe links have their functions and the brace has its function. It’s a bit like saying neither toe link option can solve the issues with the immobiliser, but I’m not sure what point you are trying to make by conflating their functions?

We think have made it as easy as possible to allow a brace to fit, with several options and it uses the stability of the brackets as a support but this is not really relevant to the toe link function in isolation.

 

Over the years it is very rare I openly comment on another manufacturers output unless it is dangerous or clearly has a major issue and even then it is more of a hint, i.e when a particular “uprated” kit suffers the same failure multiple times on track.

 

BOE is the only exception and the main issue the false claims, which take a very cheap kit in terms of components, probably the cheapest, and then offer it up as the best by simply telling untruths, which are a complete reversal of the reality.

 

The issues with the BOE kit are several, for starters the poor solution of drilling the subframe and bush (in situ) in order to fit a larger single shear fastener.

If you really wanted to go down this route and didn’t care about the potential subframe problems then it would have been much easier, quicker and cheaper (£4) to simply fit a 10.9 spec M10 bolt (65nm) and keep everything as standard with the reduced possibility of subframe damage as a bonus.

You could also then go back to OE or another uprated kit easily*

By far the best solution is a double shear bracket or another double shear system. These keep the softer bolt which can deform and fail as per the original Lotus design only with a higher percentage due to the bracket.

 

Just about every claim BOE makes on its website is false.

They are the lightest that is for sure, but that is only because the "ultra strong swaged aluminum rods"are actually the weakest of any toe link kit I have ever examined, they don't have steel subframe brackets adding to the weight and the bearings are tiny also, so yes it probably is the lightest.

Their rods are made from 3.96mm wall 6061-T6 (UTS 310 MPa) and at an educated guess are about 40% of the capacity of the 6mm wall 7075 (UTS 572 MPa) Spitfire rods and also considerably weaker than the steel variants from everyone else including OE.

They cost about $15 each.

http://rodendsupply....ply-Catalog.pdf - page 14, ref - 6837XX 7/16"

 

Their â€œcarefully specified heim-joints are self lubricating, non-lined, and are rated over 23,000lbs in strength”

The 23,000 is quite low compared to the 74,000 alloy steel version we use for example, though all the European aftermarket kits should be stronger simply because they are larger and probably made from similar spec steel.

 

“These are among the highest rated heim-joints that will physically fit on the car”

This is almost funny, the bearings BOE use are 7/16" (11.1mm) OE are 12mm, most uprated kits use 1/2" (12.7mm) we use 14mm, so they are the smallest and also the weakest of the uprated kits and will obviously wear quicker as the friction area is much smaller and the subsequent peak loads/area so much higher.

https://www.lotustal...e-links-382873/

 

“over-engineering" 

 

“will have longer service intervals than they would with all other aftermarket toe-link solutions”

 

Clearly rubbish, though I can see how the price with its massive markup of about 300%, offers the illusion of quality, I would guess it is under $120 worth of bits.

The positive is that the parts are so cheap it will not cost very much to replace whatever needs replacing in due course.

 

Too late now but I think a brace fit without the brackets would have been a much better solution for you assuming the panel really cannot take a bracket. The longevity would have been at another level altogether and you would have had the advantage of the optional brace on the subframe as well had you so wished.

 

Regarding the Tuthill bearing problem from 2007, we did issue new bearings to all the owners regardless of if they actually had an issue or not.

We have also over the years offered £100 off of a new kit should the owners of the first generation kits wish to upgrade to the latest spec.

 

I appreciate you lost confidence and it was of course your choice, to highlight our customer service I should point out that the replacement bearings we ordered with aerospace Teflon liners lasted perfectly and should you have wished to upgrade to the latest M14 spec you could have bought a new Spitfire kit for much less than you paid for your BOE kit as well.

 

:)

 

* You can actually recover from the BOE kit to a degree, we have made several kits with a 7/16 inner fastener of a suitable grade, some to Aus and some to Italy so some owners are clearly not so satisfied with the performance?

 

The main reason was because one of my hole in the subframe was elongated and a bit ovalized.

This is not a problem, the bracket solves this problem by removing the contact out to the thick bracket washer

 

 

 

Thank you for your long reply....

 

I have a few comments :

 

 

- About rods: to me the BOE ones are as strong as the OEM ones : External diameter is 22 mm so it gives a 14.08 inner diameter and a section of 226 mm2 when OEM is 19 mm OD and 10.7mm  ID section 193.5 mm2. UTS for steel tubing (360 Mpa for S235) is slightly better .than the one of 6061T6 but it's compensated by the higher section. 

So the Rods should not be a problem  as the OEM ones don't show any issue .

 

- You are saying that OE bearings are 12 mm . It does not make sense since there is no ball bore diameter in the OE bearing. May be you are talking about the male threated side, it's 12.7 on the BOE kit. It seems that you did not catch this point since you pointed out rods reference 6837XX 7/16 when the right one is 6838XX 1/2 The ball bore is 7/16 and no collet go into the ball bore, only the AN7 screw .

 

- 23000 lbs corresponds to the ultimate radial static load capacity , the rod ends used are Aurora XAM7 and XAB7 you can find them at about 45 pounds each.

The rod end body is steel. All information are available on the Aurora catalog.

- I checked Aurora catalog and even an XAM12 rod end (19 mm ball bore , +22 mm male thread ) only reaches 55000 lbs of ultimate radial static load capacity and they are from the strongest rod end model sold by Aurora.

So i really wonder what your 74000 lbs stands for . I think you are comparing apples and oranges.

 

 

Yes the kit is not perfect . It lacks some dust cover and this can only be bad for wear but i've added some ball joint dust seal (It's like a washer with a rubber cup around).

The price of the kit is now too high but it was only 230 dollars  when i got it.

 

Anyway, the bracket for double shear  is a big advantage of your solution but so far my kit is flawless . The 7/16 diameter gives me about 10 times more fatigue life than the OEM 10mm . May be i'll come back to you later if need be...



#34 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 30 June 2019 - 12:48 PM

Thank you for your long reply....

And you also..  J

 

 

To me the BOE ones are as strong as the OEM ones: 

External diameter is 22 mm … and a section of 226 mm2 ……so the rods should not be a problem as the OEM ones don't show any issue

 

I have seen an aftermarket steel rod bend without the fastener failing, but as I don’t have any hard data on the incident it is not worth commenting further other than to point out that this should never happen of course.

Never seen an OE one bend apart from being hit on the link itself after a major off.

 

I didn’t realise the bearings were asymmetric; this is both good and bad news though IMHO the good news about the bearings is overshadowed by the bad news that the rods are much weaker than my estimate.

I assumed the bearing spigot was also 11.1mm not 12.7

 

OK, taking a closer look, what you have calculated would be the case if the rods were 22mm for their full length but they are swaged down so that changes all the numbers markedly as it will be at the ends where they are the weakest.

 

We can see that the outer diameter of the tube at the end is smaller than the flat on the locknut which is 19mm as a reference and it is quite a clear step so probably 0.5mm minimum, this gives a new OD of only D18mm

We now know the bore is D12.7 now and not D11.1mm so the wall is actually only 2.65mm 

This gives a cross section of just 128mm2 not 226mm2

 

The OE steel, on the other hand, uses a 12mm not 10mm joint so this is also reduced. OD19mm/ ID 12mm = 170mm2 (we don't have the actual steel spec)

 

BOE 128 x 310 = 39.6K shackles

OE 170 x 360 = 61.2K shackles

So the BOE rods are only 65% of the OE!

As a reference only, our rods are 192.7k shackles.

 

This is actually considerably worse than my initial OE steel vs BOE ally guestimate, I thought about -10% max.

Any difference in the bearings is now academic as the tubes are significantly weaker, you will not get near to the bearing limitations. The rate of wear on the BOE bearings is simply a poor choice of bearing type, this is a BOE induced problem rather than an Aurora one.

How can this kit possibly be described as uprated is farcical.

 

The rod ends used are Aurora XAM7 and XAB7 you can find them at about £45 

Aurora pricing on these is $28.50 for a single bearing, probably around $20 for a 200 unit order and with an account they would be cheaper still so the total of $120 still seems about right.

 

The 7/16 diameter gives me about 10 times more fatigue life than the OEM 10mm

Not sure what this means? If you mean the fasteners then they should never fatigue. If the forces or the design are such that the bolt is being cyclically stretched high up the curve then something is badly wrong. If you did use the 74nm BOE suggest for the inner fastener then you will probably see a deformation of the panel around the section and possible partial embedding of the bush into the panel.

 

May be I'll come back to you later if need be...

Would be nice to see the subframe fracture damage you mentioned please  J



#35 2-20

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Posted 01 July 2019 - 10:26 PM

About the fatigue life I just used some Wohler curves (Stress x life cycles) corresponding to the material of AN7 bolt.

For the same bending moment, the stress is reduced due to the bigger diameter. You can put these stress figures in the curve and compare the resultant life cycles.

This is how I extrapolated the fatigue life increase. (And of course these parts are subject to fatigue).

 

Regarding the rod ends.

You have not clarified your 74000 lbs figure. I just don’t believe that it refers to the ultimate radial static load capacity.

Even for M14 metric rod ends, I found most of them are showing less capability than the BOE Aurora choice.

Please could you provide realistic figure for your rod ends .

Regarding the wear, The BOE kit is not protected against dust and this is a problem that I solved with some added seals. No wear on mine after several years of use.

Even without the seals, there s not that much reports of wear…. You seem to have forgotten how many years it has taken  to your kit to reach maturity 
 

 

Regarding the rods… No doubt that yours are very strong… The strongest . But why ? For sure, lightness was not your motivation. 

3 times stronger than OEM.... Your rods are so strong that they cannot bend in case of accidental curb contact …

Is the BOE rod weaker than OEM? Is it too weak ? I will clarify with them , 

 

 



#36 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 05:48 PM

This is how I extrapolated the fatigue life increase. (And of course these parts are subject to fatigue).

 

That’s fine but it isn’t telling what you want to know.

The mounting spigot of the OE bearing does not suffer from fatigue failures if correctly fastened (none that I have seen at least). The section that does fatigue and fail is the untensioned toe link spigot of the OE ball joints after the bearings wear. 

It’s rare to see an inner bolt failure on uprated kits due to the double shear brackets and again, never seen a fatigue failure. So if the fatigue life of say 100 years or 1000 years is not so useful.

The more relevant information at the upper end of the curve is the failure point as this governs the energy that is transferred to the subframe.

 

Recently a VX had an off on track and hit a wall/bank sideways. The outer collets were broken off, the inner double shear bracket was buckled and both bolts severely bent, but the toe link did not detach and the subframe was undamaged.

That is how a correctly designed toe link should behave.

 

Regarding the rod ends.

That was my error, the number was the N figure from another bearing design.

I should have checked all the numbers before commenting.

As already mentioned the initial comparison was based on the 7/16 bearing which we now know it isn’t as such. It’s irrelevant now anyway as none of the bearings mentioned would fail before something else in the toe link system.

 

Regarding the wear, 

 

I don’t have an interest or an issue with the wear rate of any other kit, the problem is when they make false claims regarding the service interval, especially considering the time, effort and investment we put in to be able to make the same claim, which is true. Almost 9 years now since the custom bearings were introduced without a single worn bearing. No other kit has matched this regardless if they are fitted with Aurora, NMB, Fluro, etc.

 

Regarding the rods… No doubt that yours are very strong… The strongest . But why? For sure, lightness was not your motivation. 

 

Yes it was, they are about 30% lighter than all of the steel options though there are other considerations,

The reason for the strength is that we wanted the rods to accept high lateral damage to the rod itself without folding as this would reduce maximum axial force the toe link system could accept.

If you have suffered a track collision or left the track/road and are sliding over heavy undulations or obstructions you don’t want the added complication of losing the rear wheels steering as well, certainly not for the sake of 50gms of aluminium.

Further, the rods are hard anodised so it is important they do not stretch or flex.

 

3 times stronger than OEM.... Your rods are so strong that they cannot bend in case of accidental curb contact …

 

Correct, and intentional, the rod itself is not the weak link in all the kits I know of including OE, the only possible exception is BOE?

 

Is the BOE rod weaker than OEM? Is it too weak? I will clarify with them, 

 

I didn’t say they were too weak, I said they were about 65% of the OE rods.

Again the real issue is the false claims regarding the strongest kit.

 

Worth remembering the issue is not normal track work or on the road, the problems come with high energy impacts and what most owners want is the ability to keep control of the car but not at the expense of the subframe or worse the passenger cell, usually by this stage the car is not going anywhere soon and the protection becomes the higher priority as the toe link system has already taken its share of energy out of the impact.

 

Most also seem to like fitting them and have them still perform year after year without service or replacement component costs.

 

:)


Edited by Spitfire Engineering, 02 July 2019 - 05:53 PM.


#37 2-20

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Posted 02 July 2019 - 07:29 PM

Thanks for your message...
False claims are the norm from sellers unfortunately...This is how it is and a good reason to be careful ...
And please don't tell me that you are the one who makes exceptions...
So far the BOE kit has not proven to be the dangerous thing that you said ...
I see it as a totally different philosophy of engineering though...

#38 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 10:05 AM

Thanks for your message...
False claims are the norm from sellers unfortunately...This is how it is and a good reason to be careful ...

And please don't tell me that you are the one who makes exceptions...

So far the BOE kit has not proven to be the dangerous thing that you said ...

I see it as a totally different philosophy of engineering though...


 

 

False claims are the norm from sellers unfortunately...This is how it is and a good reason to be careful ...

 

This is where specialist forums can be useful as you increase the reference base, though you also need to careful, confirmation bias is a powerful influence, though sometimes justified  J

 

To make the point, you wasted no time posting the problem you had even though it was over a decade ago and you already know what action we took to correct it. I cannot imagine any of the other suppliers sending you replacement bearings for free even when there is no indication the units you have are actually faulty.

Btw there were only 12 kits involved as the faulty bearing problem came to light pretty quickly.

 

What we do is clearly not what you are looking for and that's fine, you pays your money and makes your choice, but others read these threads and if that choice is going to be made on falsified claims regarding quality and superlatives I think forum members should be advised.

 

So far the BOE kit has not proven to be the dangerous thing that you said ...
 

I'm sorry but that is the second time you have tried to credit me with something I did not say, please indicate in my posts where I have stated the BOE kit is dangerous?

If this is your inference from what you have read then that is for you and BOE to discuss between yourselves, good luck with that, I wrote to BOE over 3 years ago regarding their false claims and never received a reply, hopefully, as a customer you will fair better.

As a reminder, I didn't say the rods are too weak either, that was your comment.

 

I suspect BOE will not like you posting such memes as “too weak” and “dangerous” regarding their kit on a forum so please be careful, There is clearly a very large difference between factual information and your interpretation of it.

 

And please don't tell me that you are the one who makes exceptions...

 

Yes, I am telling you that, we don't make false claims and are happy saying this on open forum, if you really feel we are lying to you then why don't you just start a thread asking and see what replies you receive? Then you can increase the sample of one to a much larger sample rate.

 

We offer a 4 year warranty on our custom bearings because we can, if we still do not have a worn bearing over the next year or so we will increase it to a 5 year warranty, and backdate it just to prove a point. And so on…..

I’m pretty sure if other manufacturers had the confidence in their products and could get the kudos from offering this kind of warranty they would surely do so.

 

I see it as a totally different philosophy of engineering though...

 

Yes, it is a different philosophy; we make stuff as good as we can considering the limitation on what people will pay for a kit. We could also make the rods from 7068 and reduce the weight another 30% but selling kits for £400+vat is not easy.

We have made 7068 rods btw as a custom order.

 

Our kits are easily the best value for money and have the highest % of material cost and engineering costs as part of the total kit cost.

As an example you have already seen, the rods were actually designed for purpose in the first instance, machined from solid 7075 stock they are much stronger and 30% lighter; they are also hard anodised to a display finish and are the most resilient to corrosion. Unfortunately for me they do not cost $14 off-the-shelf.

 

I don't accept that bearings need to be replaced regularly, if at all, nor bolts*. The main components of the kit are designed to last the life of the car.

Because of the longevity, most probably the kit will also become the cheapest over time, purely as an example, If you add a pair of your £45 bearings in a couple of years time to the cost of your kit you should see what I mean, ignoring fitting and geo costs.

 

We make this stuff because I actually enjoy making products which are technically superior, the inspiration comes from working in aviation most of my working life hence the use of exotic materials and high engineering standards. We also try to give the best customer service and experience we can and also look for solutions to particular problems, the VX subframe fracture issue and the brace solution being a good example.

http://www.vx220.org...ed/?hl=subframe

http://www.vx220.org...ed/?hl=subframe

 

Even before we started I knew the time and effort spent sorting the brace fitting options so as many owners as possible could fit the brace was never going to be recovered in sales, but it was a good mental design exercise and I enjoyed doing it, a lot of braced cars will most probably remain road worthy for much longer as a result of reducing subframe fatigue so it was well worth it. 

 

Yes, a different philosophy.

 

:)

 

*If you have to replace suspension bolts regularly due to normal use on track or the road then something is desperately wrong, check it out.

 

If you have an impact always check everything out, all the suspension fasteners, etc. 



#39 2-20

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Posted 03 July 2019 - 10:30 PM

OK, I feel that I’m getting on your nerves and it’s not my intention

I like your kit and what you have developed for these cars.

 

English is not my language so may be “false claims” are not the right words .. I should have said sales pitch sometimes with misleading information like these examples:  

 

When you write : "out latest kit uses 7068," in this post  http://www.vx220.org...+kits, +vxparts

 we can think that all kits are using this material but it was only for a special order

 

 When you write : "Basically it is the lightest, strongest and easily the most durable kit,.."

http://www.vx220.org...st#entry1859813
i already know that 1/3 of that is not true

 

I did not say that the BOE rods are too weak either.

I wrote:  Is the BOE rod weaker than OEM ?  Is it too weak ? 

This symbol  â€œ? “  has a meaning , it means that I just don’t know and that I’m wondering…It’s related to what I think and has nothing to do with what you think.

 

I confirm the misinterpretation of your following comments : â€œOver the year it is very rare I openly comment on another manufactures output unless it is dangerous or clearly has a major issue and even then it is more of a hint, i.e when a particular “up rated” kit suffers the same failure multiple times on track” followed by â€œBOE is the only exception and the main issue the false claims….”

 

Thinking that you were deliberately  putting BOE in the “dangerous category”

 


Edited by 2-20, 03 July 2019 - 10:31 PM.


#40 Spitfire Engineering

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Posted 04 July 2019 - 11:20 AM

OK, I feel that I’m getting on your nerves and it’s not my intention

I like your kit and what you have developed for these cars.

 

English is not my language so may be “false claims” are not the right words .. I should have said sales pitch sometimes with misleading information like these examples:  

 

When you write : "out latest kit uses 7068," in this post  http://www.vx220.org...+kits, +vxparts

 we can think that all kits are using this material but it was only for a special order

 

 When you write : "Basically it is the lightest, strongest and easily the most durable kit,.."

http://www.vx220.org...st#entry1859813
i already know that 1/3 of that is not true

 

I did not say that the BOE rods are too weak either.

I wrote:  Is the BOE rod weaker than OEM ?  Is it too weak ? 

This symbol  â€œ? “  has a meaning , it means that I just don’t know and that I’m wondering…It’s related to what I think and has nothing to do with what you think.

 

I confirm the misinterpretation of your following comments : â€œOver the year it is very rare I openly comment on another manufactures output unless it is dangerous or clearly has a major issue and even then it is more of a hint, i.e when a particular “up rated” kit suffers the same failure multiple times on track” followed by â€œBOE is the only exception and the main issue the false claims….”

 

Thinking that you were deliberately  putting BOE in the “dangerous category”

 






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