218 replies to this topic

[coldel]

 

That's all based on the assumption that as a technology we never advance. Fifteen years ago paying for something with your phone was inconceivable, a phone battery the size of a postage stamp lasting days just unbelievable, hell even an electric car driving 200 miles, surely not! The environmental impact of putting in hydro stations vs global rising water levels wiping out a large percentage of the world inhabitable surface? The confusion here is that renewables companies are aware they aren't perfect, its the opposition view being pushed that they are not aware of it that is false.

Battery tech is moving forwards with solid state batteries, alternatives to lithium-ion etc. and in 10 years we will be in a totally different place. Renewable is now capable of covering something like 15% of the power needs of the UK, and that's with sizable resistance to its growth, disbelief that climate change is here, coupled with the fact that we need to wait for fossil fuel power stations to expire before replacing them, so on and so forth. How many people die mining for fossil fuels, or in fact any tech that western Europe uses - do you feel guilty about using your mobile phone built in Chinese sweat shops? Will Cobalt even be needed in 10 years time? I never saw an argument for the slave like conditions to be used for all our cheap tech that we use in the west to be banned.

Scientifically renewables is a no brainer, cheaper, cleaner, long term availability, falling costs not rising. Sure its going to take a bit of effort to get there, but we have to really.

If EV is really the future why are new build properties not built with charging points ? I am not convinced about the impact of EV being that better when all environmental impacts are taken into account but will be interested to see the extension leads hanging out if high rise apartments to charge the car overnight 😂

 

 

It has been shown time and again that end to end full life that EV cars have a lower environmental impact on the planet than the equivalent ICE option - and thats before we see industry adapt to the opportunity of battery recycling at scale where you will see more innovation and making end to end even greener than it is now.

 

But I agree infrastructure is going to be the issue around growth, until there is a network of garage with charge units that can charge your car fully in the same time it takes to fill a tank of petrol the reliance is going to be on charging at home - ideally in the future charging at home will be one of a number of options. 

 

I hate to say it but EV makes sense for people that just use cars to get about, thats all they want them for and there are a lot of these people, certainly this forum is not representative of the populous in that respect!

[PaulCP]

 

 

 

It has been shown time and again that end to end full life that EV cars have a lower environmental impact on the planet than the equivalent ICE option - and thats before we see industry adapt to the opportunity of battery recycling at scale where you will see more innovation and making end to end even greener than it is now.

 

 

Then there’s this, which is before we consider how to environmentally dispose of the lithium when decommissioning EV’s once the recycling option has been exhausted

https://www.wired.co...ironment-impact

 

https://www.ft.com/c...06-a4640c9feebb

[coldel]

Its says straight off the bat, 'could' become a problem, paragraph one. Sure, Lithium isn't good, but once batteries become a viable scale problem they will get scale attention from companies who can profit from using it. The main problem is too many people including those that want big headlines focus on current solutions, not those that are to come. 

 

Millions globally suffer from heart disease, cancer, strokes etc. which are in a significant way brought on by ICE pollution generated in close proximity to human populations. 

 

EVs are not Green, they are Greener, it's important to recognise the difference. There are still issues that need to be resolved, but its better than what we have now where we burn a finite resource and end to end cause more environmental damage than the EV alternative.

Edited by coldel, 09 December 2019 - 12:29 PM.

[Jetpilot]

 

 

That's all based on the assumption that as a technology we never advance. Fifteen years ago paying for something with your phone was inconceivable, a phone battery the size of a postage stamp lasting days just unbelievable, hell even an electric car driving 200 miles, surely not! The environmental impact of putting in hydro stations vs global rising water levels wiping out a large percentage of the world inhabitable surface? The confusion here is that renewables companies are aware they aren't perfect, its the opposition view being pushed that they are not aware of it that is false.

Battery tech is moving forwards with solid state batteries, alternatives to lithium-ion etc. and in 10 years we will be in a totally different place. Renewable is now capable of covering something like 15% of the power needs of the UK, and that's with sizable resistance to its growth, disbelief that climate change is here, coupled with the fact that we need to wait for fossil fuel power stations to expire before replacing them, so on and so forth. How many people die mining for fossil fuels, or in fact any tech that western Europe uses - do you feel guilty about using your mobile phone built in Chinese sweat shops? Will Cobalt even be needed in 10 years time? I never saw an argument for the slave like conditions to be used for all our cheap tech that we use in the west to be banned.

Scientifically renewables is a no brainer, cheaper, cleaner, long term availability, falling costs not rising. Sure its going to take a bit of effort to get there, but we have to really.

If EV is really the future why are new build properties not built with charging points ? I am not convinced about the impact of EV being that better when all environmental impacts are taken into account but will be interested to see the extension leads hanging out if high rise apartments to charge the car overnight 😂

 

 

 

I hate to say it but EV makes sense for people that just use cars to get about, thats all they want them for and there are a lot of these people, certainly this forum is not representative of the populous in that respect!

 

 

I agree with that, if i could buy a sensible ev van that carries what i need for work, i would have one in a heartbeat, but there is a caveat*

 

 

 

EVs are not Green, they are Greener, it's important to recognise the difference. 

 

I also wouldnt disagree with that.

 

However narrow minded it may be i am so sick of the ev thing being rammed down my throat by all and sundry, even our last bastion of ice forums you get the odd ev convert on a crusade, the last thing i want to do is go on a ice forum with some ev messiah preaching about how ev's are the future, its exciting times, look my ev does 0-60 in x, your a dinosaur, endless links of videos and did i mention its the future just in case it was missed the other million times i said it, etc etc etc,  Col probably knows all too well from the 350z forum we had one in particular who kept banging the drum over ice cars, i am now completely and utterly hell bent on staying in an ice car for as long as possible in the vain hope it annoys them, churlish i know!

 

Back to the caveat, Ford have just realised a hybrid transit, £40k plus vat base, when you can buy a normal transit for circa £20k, you would have to be insane to buy one imho. Batteries may be getting cheaper (i doubt it if Musk has anything to do with it with his battery factories), but i just do not see how that price mentioned is ever going to lower considerably enough to be an alternative.

[C8RKH]

Nuclear 50 years ago was touted as a "greener" and viable alternative to carbon. Funny how now we see it as dirty, expensive, waste is an issue etc.

 

Lithium, Batteries, I wonder if in 50 years are grand children will be chastising us for our wasteful use of batteries and their subsequent contamination and waste issues?

 

People are quick to point out about science, the future and how rosy it all will be, they forget that you could argue that science and technology got us to where we are.

 

Despite all the hype, all the bullshit, the liberal glossing over of the infrastructure issues the fact is that EVs are still less than 1% of total volume car sales, hybrids are around 12% and yet the heavier polluting, non electric SUVs are over 30%!

 

Guess that outside of the early adopters and fan boys the figures show that people are NOT in love with EVs and the extra cost, range anxiety, etc is still a big issue in many buyers eyes.

 

[coldel]

Infrastructure is definitely a problem, and EVs are still in their infancy. If for instance we simplify it and there are say 40m cars and 2m new cars sold each year, even if new car sales were 100% EVs it would still take 20 years to move the entire population over to EV usage. So when I read these complete EV nutters who think x% of the car ownership will be EV by 2025 really havent checked any of the economics of it all.

 

That said, we are at a point where we can shift from burning a finite resource, in an inefficient manner (something like 60% of energy is wasted through ICE vehicles), causing local pollution problems and potentially contributing to making parts of the planet uninhabitable - this is a pretty strong argument for people that just trundle around in cars to get from A to B and in all honesty, they are right. It makes absolutely no sense hanging on to this, even though as I have said I will cling to my VX for as long as possible! But certainly once EVs become more viable, the family car will become one.

 

What I do believe in though is that we cannot just keep burning stuff, its bad at a climate level, its even worse in the short term at local level when you look at direct to person pollution levels. The future will be different, the definition of the human race is that this is true, otherwise we would still have a guy in a suit carrying a flag in front of a car on rubber wheels with no air in who started the engine by winding a handle - it will change, its not pie in the sky thinking, this is how the human race has advanced for, well since forever. 

 

EVs (assuming that no other alternative is mooted/political direction changes/policy changes etc come in to play) will follow your typical S curve of adoption, we are still early stages, but once pricing comes in at a level that is affordable/infrastructure continues to grow, it will suddenly rise as the early majority kick in and take it up. 

Edited by coldel, 09 December 2019 - 02:16 PM.

[coldel]

...and yes as JP mentioned I had a fair few run in's with the unnamed 350z fanboy who honestly couldnt see why I might love my ICE VX220 and why I wouldnt be just as happy driving a Model X instead!

[coldel]

Anyway, saw that the Lib Dems have softened their brexit stance, think they have realised (far too late) that unilateral withdrawal wasn't as popular a policy as they thought. Assumptions that remainers want to cancel brexit unilaterally I would guess is feeding back to them. Be interesting to see what they promote as their headline in the next few days.

[Jetpilot]

Anyway, saw that the Lib Dems have softened their brexit stance, think they have realised (far too late) that unilateral withdrawal wasn't as popular a policy as they thought. Assumptions that remainers want to cancel brexit unilaterally I would guess is feeding back to them. Be interesting to see what they promote as their headline in the next few days.

 

Personally this is and has been the whole problem with the referendum, some politicians and some of the population just simply couldnt accept that leave won and she was one of them!

 

For over three years i have been told i voted the wrong way because, i was lied to and scammed, i didnt know what i was voting for, the russians made me do it, if the students had voted it would have been different,i was too thick to know what i was voting for and then as time went on, its been so long people have changed their minds, you didnt vote for no deal  OR this deal and whatever else anyone else could think of to discredit the vote to leave.....Its all utter bullsh*t and if these politicans (from all parties) had actually accepted the vote which they all said they would we could be at least a year down the line. I would bet my left nut if we had another referendum tomorrow the vote would be equally split, possibly a different outcome but very similar %, so i see no reason why that should mean the end of it.

 

New law for the new government, referendums are legally binding!

[rob999]

Latest headline stuff from Boris.

Showing zero empathy, zero respect....speaks volumes about the man and his desperate wish to just reel off a spiel and move on.

Jesus our political parties are a joke.

[C8RKH]

Latest headline stuff from Boris.

Showing zero empathy, zero respect....speaks volumes about the man
and his desperate wish to just reel off a spiel and move on.

Jesus our political parties are a joke.

I suppose the flip side is a man who shows 100% empathy to terrorists (obviously great for photo opportunities). No respect for UK armed forces or establishments. And is just so desperate to be PM no matter what.
I agree. Our political parties are a joke.

[coldel]

I agree JP, the referendum voted leave, so I am going with that although I am dismayed at Boris wanting to leave no deal. That's my issue - as is a lot of people. And also whilst sticking left nuts on the table, if remain had won 52% to 48% I would be betting we would have had Farage, Boris and the ERG banging on relentlessly that we have another referendum when all the promises by the remain campaign failed to materialise. 

 

Agree with the above, I have genuinely never felt so disenfranchised by politics, Trump has basically legitimised cowboy behaviour by party leaders, it's quite depressing.

[Jetpilot]

You may well have Farage etc banging on about a 2nd referendum, the only real justification for the first one was the growing ukip (farage) votes and the tories leaking votes to them, thats pretty much the only reason why Cameron won that election, he promised the referendum. So regardless of whether such individuals would be calling for one, it would never have happened or lasted more than a few months of drum banging, unless there was another swell of votes for the Brexit party, which there will be if it fails to materialise.

 

My problem with remain is they have done everything they can possibly do to actually stop Brexit, from day one, no one even waited to see what has transpired, however they are perfectly within their rights to call for another referendum, but to actually try and thwart it, bang out of order imho and its still a real possibility with another hung parliament. If you feel disenfranchised step into the shoes of a leave voter for a minute and as above, would another close call referendum actually put it to bed? 

 

Especially under Corbyn, which would actually be a different question to a different demographic with under 18's and non nationals allowed to vote. If we are going down that route, the question needs to be the same, leave (under whatever guise a voter wants it be, Bojos deal and no deal) or remain and the same demographic, or have an av vote, deal, no deal, remain.

Edited by Jetpilot, 10 December 2019 - 12:35 PM.

[coldel]

Therein lies a fallacy, that 'remain' is one group, which it isn't in fact the voice of those that want it cancelled outright are much smaller than those who have other views. There is no such thing as 'remain want to cancel brexit' as a large group, otherwise the Lib Dems would have smashed the polls over the last couple of months. 

 

And have to disagree, Farage was banging his drum on this for 20 years, it is not sensible to think a referendum going the other way would have ended all that. That voice would have continued for as long as he could breath, and the ground swell of 48% wanting to leave would have been strong enough to push for another vote. 

[slindborg]

Well, I'm, for once, 100% happy with my voting intentions for today.

 

I have voted every single time a ballot card has dropped through my door since the age of 18. Today that changed. I have zero desire for any of the headline policies form any one group, the local government idea is still wrong and they will vote along with the wip/whip/walnut so that makes no odds there. With that in mind, I have chosen to not vote. I wont moan and whinge about the outcome as I will have no right to, also I cannot be disappointed or elated. Its really rather relaxing

[SteveA]

Well, I'm, for once, 100% happy with my voting intentions for today.

 

I have voted every single time a ballot card has dropped through my door since the age of 18. Today that changed. I have zero desire for any of the headline policies form any one group, the local government idea is still wrong and they will vote along with the wip/whip/walnut so that makes no odds there. With that in mind, I have chosen to not vote. I wont moan and whinge about the outcome as I will have no right to, also I cannot be disappointed or elated. Its really rather relaxing

 

None of the above    Totally understand in todays world, reminds me of the South Park episode where the vote was between a Turd sandwich and a giant douche.

 

https://www.youtube....h?v=Pji_IX-UacM

[coldel]

Well, I'm, for once, 100% happy with my voting intentions for today.

 

I have voted every single time a ballot card has dropped through my door since the age of 18. Today that changed. I have zero desire for any of the headline policies form any one group, the local government idea is still wrong and they will vote along with the wip/whip/walnut so that makes no odds there. With that in mind, I have chosen to not vote. I wont moan and whinge about the outcome as I will have no right to, also I cannot be disappointed or elated. Its really rather relaxing

 

Would it have been worth going in and spoiling the ballot paper then? They do count them and its historically a sign that there were no worthy candidates to vote for.

[slindborg]

 

Well, I'm, for once, 100% happy with my voting intentions for today.

 

I have voted every single time a ballot card has dropped through my door since the age of 18. Today that changed. I have zero desire for any of the headline policies form any one group, the local government idea is still wrong and they will vote along with the wip/whip/walnut so that makes no odds there. With that in mind, I have chosen to not vote. I wont moan and whinge about the outcome as I will have no right to, also I cannot be disappointed or elated. Its really rather relaxing

 

Would it have been worth going in and spoiling the ballot paper then? They do count them and its historically a sign that there were no worthy candidates to vote for.

 

 

Spoliied ballots are counted that you are too stupid to hold a pencil, regardless of how eloquent one may be (or just drawing knobs on there). so its even worthless doing that.

 

If there was a "none of the above" option, I'd have been banging the doors down at 7am
 

[rob999]

Disappointed you didn’t draw giant cocks Stu 😐

[ianrm]

I have not voted since the days of John Major for the very same reasons as Stu.But, I have just been and voted. I voted for our independent candidate who has done and is doing so much for our Town.