77 replies to this topic

[ad172]

Well I've just added my 2p worths. I think the majority of racers in the series would NOT want the VX booted out next year. Yes there have been problems but these are development issues that can only get resolved with time (and money). I have to say that I was a little shocked by the bluntness of a director's post!! Forgot to add Thorney - good to meet (again ) on Sat. Keep up the good work and I'm sure something will come of it in due course. And Richard don't be disheartened - yes I'm sure you are frustrated but put it down to experience!!

Edited by ad172, 19 July 2007 - 02:05 PM.

[Thorney]

Strange really, I've spent pretty much the last 2 years trying to cultivate more active association with the Elise owners, attending LoT events, open days at dealers, active promotion of LoT as the chosen track day company for the VX community, promotion of SELOC events such as the L2B, charity days they run and forum membership and for it to come to a point where we're potentially not welcome in the race series does hurt a bit. If you ask the drivers in the series they all to a person want us to stay (well, those I've asked to their faces and I've no reason to think they're trying to misslead me) but the drivers have no direct say in the decisions. Thinking back I've even given LoT free banners on this site in promotion but now LoT is one of the biggest track day companies out there, the race series is phenominally successful with full grids and people waiting maybe we're just not needed any more? We're even planning LoT to host the annual event ffs! I'm pretty confident we can make the cars competitive, in fact now I've seen some of the Class C weights I'm very confident, in Class A we we're already ok I thought and all I want is the chance to prove it and have fun at the same time. The fun bit is a bit missing though, its like being in a classroom where you know the teacher hates you, the first wrong move and you know he's going to come down on you like a tonne of bricks and throw you out of class....doesn't make for a nice feeling. However, I'm not going to quit or be forced to quit, the VX IS a good car and IS a good race car, I'll prove it, so long as I'm allowed.

[siztenboots]

Got any Europa badges spare ? You know where I am going with this one ...

[earlystock]

If the NA is ready (and it seems it is) for prime time, then perhaps, just to prove a point, it might be good to put a really good driver in it (THIS IS NOT A DIG AT RICHARD OR JOHN). If the car could finish top 3 in group A then I think it would help a lot in establishing it's credibility. There must be some good drivers out there willing to give it a shot. Once it is established that the car can compete, then perhaps the derision will reduce? Just to put this into perspective, on a track evening at Brands last year, Mick Palfrey was lapping in a time that would have put close to the top of the group A qualifying time, in an NA that (at the time) was not highly tuned and would have been eligible for the series (no we were not timing thhe laps, this was derived from video). Mick was on form that day, but I am sure he would be the first to say there are faster drivers out there (again, not a dig, just saying Mick would be representative of a typical group A driver) The NA COULD be competitive. Just a thought By the way John, I am once again gainfully employed, and as discussed at the Silverstone round, I have a wee bit of a windfall, maybe we can talk at the next round? BTW, I am actually VERY encouraged by the support given by the Elise community, only a couple of people had any real negative comments.

Edited by earlystock, 19 July 2007 - 03:55 PM.

[Thorney]

I've got nothing but respect and admiration for the whole Elise community. I spent a bit of time with some of the SELOC crowd at their camp at Castle Combe and they were (are) a truly entertaining bunch. It was so nice just toc hat about cars, racing and the differences between the cars, they were genuinely interested in what we do and were a really great bunch to have a couple of beers with. Every single driver in the series (well with one or two exceptions) are postive on the VX's involvement, if we'd been accused of punting people off or driving like lunatics I'd be fully behind our removal but the only car on car contact with me (can't really include Richard as he's only done 2 turns ) was at Oulton Park and I was hit rather than the other way round and no one was blamed. However at the same time who cares? When the series started no -one knew how successful it would be, they were worried we'd get enough cars to fill a grid, indeed I've heard of pressure being put on people with late night phonecalls almost demanding they race to make sure then the VX's were sought after, even desired as we helped the numbers. Now, who cares? They can fill grids almost twice over now and seeing as it is the Elise Trophy maybe we aren't worth having? I do see the logic in that. However the series was created for like minded track dayers to race their cars surely we still qualify in that regard? I don't want to see any VX vs Elise backlash, regardless of the outcome I want both communities to continue to be the best of friends, obviously I'd love to carry on racing with the Elises but my pursasion of others in this regard is probably a bit weak.

[RMC]

EDIT: And like was mentioned on SELOC, would this then also mean a possible/eventual end to the ties between the VX's and Lotus clubs? As others would react in the same manner.

I do hope not.

I feel for Thorney. It must be a bit of a kick in the teeth after trying so hard at your own cost.

[ChazUwe]

Well the below was posted by the LOTRDC main organiser so I think it is safe to say it is certains for the VX's in 2008. Clearly only a few people probably know the full facts on what has gone on and to be honest it's not of great interest to me. However it is such a shame that it looks like VX's won't be able to mix it amongst the Loti's in future because of a very obvious personal disagreement/fall out. Which may or may not be justified in either direction. I don't think anyone can dispute the excellent job LOT does and be appreciative of all the hard work put in by organisers of the LOTRDC, LOT track days and general events that on the whole we are welcome to partake in. If I had the money I would love to give it ago, alas I don't and doesn't look like we would be able to anyway. "calypsoelise Club Supporter Advertiser -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Posts: 15074 Registered: 19-11-2002 Location: www.lotus-on-track.com Member Is Online No Country S1-Honda'd,S1 - Sport 160,Mini Cooper S,Disco3 Mood: adams family home 19-7-2007 at 09:26 PM Unlike some have done we don't really want to slag off drivers or communities so to date have just posted facts and kept most things between the series and it's drivers private. If people have enquired about next year we've tried to be as honest as possible so as not to waste anyone’s time or money. Now a few facts that a handful in the VX community seem to be missing.. LoT & LoTRDC are run as non profit making clubs in our own time - LoT has never made a profit and I hope all VX220 owners that have done our track days will say they have been treated in the same way as Elise owners, if anyone’s unhappy it's quite clear on our website we'll give membership fee back and they can leave. VX220's make up about 5% of LoTs membership and we have 1 or 2 on most days, we had 1 at Le Mans today. LoTRDC will also not turn a profit this year, no committee member has rec'd any payment including any expenses. However, the 14 members of the committee put in thousands of hours between them at considerable financial and personal cost just to set up and run the Elise Trophy. 11 of those 14 committee members have also driven in the series a number we expect to rise, most of the grid have been personal friends of ours for a number of years and come through various clubs, including seloc before LoT, they understand what we are about and have for many years trusted us to make the right decissions - not everyone wants to get involved in the sh*t we have to deal with in their personal time! As we've made quite clear from day 1. We allowed the VX220 in for year one as a test, we always made it quite clear this would be reviewed for 2008. Some VX220 drivers we sold a 2 year package, something that alarmed us to say the least and we voiced our concerns when we were told. We also made it quite clear we accepted the VX's to help with grid sizes and set a limit of 5 cars maximum, although requests were made for more. 3 cars materialized, reading this thread we seem to be back down to 1 now, although we have none entered for the next round of the series at Donington. We also invited a VX220 owner on to the committee to help give us advice on the VX220's as we admitted we didn't know much about them. Many months before the season started we had 'issues' with certain garages and drivers in a number of areas, something some on the committee still have not forgotten. Before the season started it was mutually agreed that it was in the interests of the series for this member to leave the committee, something that was taken very well on both sides and things moved on. The series has now had 6 rounds and 12 races and the VX drivers have not been treated any differently to any other drivers. John has stated this many times himself and I'm sure Richard who raced for the first time at the weekend will state that he was treated with the utmost respect, I myself spent a fair bit of time helping to get him through the paperwork and process. Back in June I made it quite clear to John that as I’ve already stated early in the thread I 'personally' would be recommending that we dropped the vx220's from 2008 regs. The reason for this was the amount of additional work and bull sh*t we rec'd from the remaining VX220, more than the rest of the grid put together. This tied in to the number of Elises we were turning away for me seemed to be a no brainer. Seperate to this a VX220 driver was suspended from the series, a situation that was resolved without them missing a round. We currently find ourselves in a position where 3 of our 4 man technical committee are not prepared to talk to the man deeply involved in the remaining VX's about regs issues. For our next round at Donington Park we have a full entry list, including the maximum number of reserves and not one VX220 has entered. This is 42 cars. We have taken a decision that the interests of the existing drivers are best served in 2008 if we stick to running 1 grid at most circuits. We do plan to run 2 grids at 1 or 2 smaller circuits and will be doing so at Brands Indy in November this year. This means that we are still turning away LoT members with Elises, that to date have not caused us major regs issues. Some have been saying in here we should run a 2nd grid, you really need to understand what is involved in running a race series. We as a committee could not cope with running a 2nd grid, we would not fill a 2nd grid, we cannot take the financial risk of a 2nd grid or put the financial burden a 2nd grid would bring on either committee members or existing drivers shoulders. If someone wants to come along and fund a 2nd grid for us or wants to run their own series they are more than welcome. If anyone cares to look at our entry fees they will find they are among the lowest in the country against per min of track time, they will also find that our calendar is one of the most driver friendly in the UK. These are points most drivers have said they would like to continue. We have made it quite clear that whatever decision we make for 2008 the VX220’s are more than welcome to continue in 2007 within the existing regs and membership criteria. We really want them at Spa and Brands, in fact at Spa if anyone with a race VX220 and at least a Nat A license reads this we would welcome you onto the grid. I've tried to stay out of most of the items in this thread as to be honest we've spent hours everyday for over a year now looking at everything about the series in detail and going over all options. I really don’t want to waste my time answering individual questions from people who really have no idea what it's like to take something like this on or what we have to deal with on a daily basis. This is a hobby after all. At the end of the day nothing we say on here will change the way the series will grow but it may cost others money or affect lives. We really want to keep taking the series forward and do what we believe is in the best interests of the majority of the drivers. To be honest without the continued involvement of most of the committee there is no Elise Trophy - anyone fancy going back to the mid-engineed series? On this point, " As it is I'm faced with the prospect of two £30k race cars with no where to race next year" I won't go into the £30k element but there are elises and vx220's racing in other series, John has himself stated just this week that he may take part in the lma euro sallons in September with another vx220 that already competes, soemthing he seems to have forgotten in this post. There are many series that don’t find themselves in the fortunate position that we do of having to turn cars away that would welcome one or two VX220's in fact I’m sure they may even be open to having a vx220 class. There are Elises racing in many series throughout the UK, at least 3 other venues had them racing this last weekend. No all Elises are racing in the Elise Trophy and many have been turned away. Now before people bitch and moan can I suggest that you extend the courtesy of reading posts that are made, not miss quoting them and making sure you understand everything that has gone on before taking the moral high ground. Some who have posted on this thread have been arround long enough to realise there are 2 sides to every story and that some of us are do'ers and don't rush into decissions. "

[jules_s]

Oh dear Seems to me that JT has ruffled a few feathers there then.....TBH it doesn't surprise me having followed this since brands. With the vx being a major minority I can imagine they will/have got pissed off with requests for 'selective' regs changes for the vx's. If the regs were changed for us and the vx's started getting podiums/winning the organisers would be monumentaly slated...and I guess to an extent thats what I/we have blinkered ourselves from. Bugger. I do feel some sympathy for John though, he obviously had to bat the corner for his drivers...but it would appear that this has turned around and bitten him on the arse after they have long gone

[Thorney]

I've posted this reply: Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by calypsoelise no committee member has rec'd any payment including any expenses. However, the 14 members of the committee put in thousands of hours between them at considerable financial and personal cost just to set up and run the Elise Trophy. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Where have I been anything that complimentary on the series and the effort put in? You can also accept that I've put a fair amount of time in for the series as well? Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by calypsoelise As we've made quite clear from day 1. We allowed the VX220 in for year one as a test, we always made it quite clear this would be reviewed for 2008. Some VX220 drivers we sold a 2 year package, something that alarmed us to say the least and we voiced our concerns when we were told. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- To clarify, we had a two year deal with both the drivers to race VX220's with the clause that if the VX's were excluded after one year then the drivers had the option to either race somewhere else or a refund on part of the monies they paid for race support. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by calypsoelise We also made it quite clear we accepted the VX's to help with grid sizes and set a limit of 5 cars maximum, although requests were made for more. 3 cars materialized, reading this thread we seem to be back down to 1 now, although we have none entered for the next round of the series at Donington. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- No, we're still at 2, the third car is still owned by the driver and I lack the budget (and the driver) to get it on the grid. As you know one car was stolen. We simply missed the entry deadline for Donington, I brought entries down with us to Combe but forgot to give them to you, my fault. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by calypsoelise We also invited a VX220 owner on to the committee to help give us advice on the VX220's as we admitted we didn't know much about them. Many months before the season started we had 'issues' with certain garages and drivers in a number of areas, something some on the committee still have not forgotten. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Why not explain to all what these issues were? As regards drivers, yes all three drivers caused issues with being in/out/in but your view was to blame me (even though I had no control over the drivers whatsoever). As far as me personally I've been nothing but consistent in my entry. You mention 'garage issues' why not explain that? I made a valid observation that Class B cars should be allowed uprated brakes and remote suspension and was voted down. This clearly generated some personal rancour, however look at class B - uprated brakes and remote suspension are allowed, and yet my observation on this point is now described as 'issues'? Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by calypsoelise Before the season started it was mutually agreed that it was in the interests of the series for this member to leave the committee, something that was taken very well on both sides and things moved on. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edit. I posted a full reply on this earlier this am but upon reflection I think it better I didn't. All I want is for the VX's to be able to continue to race and seeing as this does appear to be a personal issue I think I'm better served by keeping my mouth shut. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by calypsoelise The series has now had 6 rounds and 12 races and the VX drivers have not been treated any differently to any other drivers. John has stated this many times himself and I'm sure Richard who raced for the first time at the weekend will state that he was treated with the utmost respect, I myself spent a fair bit of time helping to get him through the paperwork and process. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Yep, quite agree. never said anything other. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by calypsoelise Back in June I made it quite clear to John that as I’ve already stated early in the thread I 'personally' would be recommending that we dropped the vx220's from 2008 regs. The reason for this was the amount of additional work and bull sh*t we rec'd from the remaining VX220, more than the rest of the grid put together. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- What bull sh*t? The above? What extra work do we require now? Point taken on the Elises though. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by calypsoelise Seperate to this a VX220 driver was suspended from the series, a situation that was resolved without them missing a round. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Edit. I again posted a full reply on this with all the facts but again my aims are just to race so I'm happy to let sleeping dogs lie. I do not want to antongonise further. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by calypsoelise We currently find ourselves in a position where 3 of our 4 man technical committee are not prepared to talk to the man deeply involved in the remaining VX's about regs issues. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Well thats odd. I spoke at length with Jez and Andy and both seemed pretty affable. I asked their advice as what I should/could do and both were helpful. I spoke with Mark and yes we did disagree on the logic behind the decision to allow some cars to run without a functioning handbrake but after he explained the reason behind it (it would've potentially mean 6 cars off the grid at short notice) I understood. The only person I didn't speak with was Steve and that was purely down to opportunity. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by calypsoelise For our next round at Donington Park we have a full entry list, including the maximum number of reserves and not one VX220 has entered. This is 42 cars. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Only reason why there are no VX's is that I missed the deadline, its a popular series now. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by calypsoelise We have taken a decision that the interests of the existing drivers are best served in 2008 if we stick to running 1 grid at most circuits. We do plan to run 2 grids at 1 or 2 smaller circuits and will be doing so at Brands Indy in November this year. This means that we are still turning away LoT members with Elises, that to date have not caused us major regs issues. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Is this the issue, cars which cause regs issues are less required? If so no problem but surely if the VX's are within the regs and offer no issues then we're ok? Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by calypsoelise We have made it quite clear that whatever decision we make for 2008 the VX220’s are more than welcome to continue in 2007 within the existing regs and membership criteria. We really want them at Spa and Brands, in fact at Spa if anyone with a race VX220 and at least a Nat A license reads this we would welcome you onto the grid. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Despite the personal rancour I'm still willing to support the series in every way, this includes attending rounds where the series 'needs' us in terms of numbers. Quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Originally posted by calypsoelise On this point, " As it is I'm faced with the prospect of two £30k race cars with no where to race next year" I won't go into the £30k element but there are elises and vx220's racing in other series, John has himself stated just this week that he may take part in the lma euro sallons in September with another vx220 that already competes, soemthing he seems to have forgotten in this post. -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- I wasn't referring to my car, I was referring to the two 2.2 cars. I've made a commitment to buy the third car from the owner as and when we have funds. The 2.2 cars are not competitive for LMA. Yes, I am going to try a few LMA rounds in the VXT, be daft not to really. Early this am I posted a detailed reply to the above but upon reflection I've edited it. All I want to do is race, I don't want to upset anyone or cause any offence, thats it. I've not asked for any tech changes in any way, indeed at Castle Combe all I did was ask for advice and lots was given (and appreciated too). Since I've obtained control of the cars there have been no driver issues or commitment questions, complaints or argument. I've agreed not to make any negative comment (and save for answering direct questions here) I've done that. I really want the series to be successful and I'd obviously like VX's to be in it. I'm not expecting to to ask for any tech changes for next year and I'm happy that we can make the cars competitive. Yes there have been issues in the past but from how I see it they seem to be personal rather than fundamental to the cars and none have been repeated.

[Thorney]

With the vx being a major minority I can imagine they will/have got pissed off with requests for 'selective' regs changes for the vx's.

You see thats my point.

They asked me to be on the committee to "represent the VX220" as by their own admission they knew nothing about the cars. The first comment I made (that caused argument) was that I considered it unsafe for a 220-250bhp car weighing 850kg's to run on standard brake calipers. This only affected class B as Class C were allowed bigger calipers anyway. My argument was that VXT's run out of brakes in standard form and thats 200bhp and 900kg's and that I'd personally had brake failure on my car on track so that it should be allowed in class B. I also argued that remote resevoir suspension should be allowed as it was a natural progression from single adjustable which was allowed in A. At the time the only difference between class A and B was that the B cars could be lighter and run more power - didn't seem right to me.

There then followed a discussion about it and the net result was that I was voted down, so I despecced our cars (which already had brakes and remotes on - my fault they'd been on for months) and refunded back the money spent by the drivers on them. Fast forward to the season start......Class B allows both uprated calipers and remote reseovoir shocks Of course I wasn't part of that discussion, I'd already been removed from the committe.

Why was I removed from the committee?

Well, at Brands Hatch there was a test day in November, this was the first time we'd had a chance to weigh the cars. We were running one car in throttle body form with about 200bhp (then) and the other in 160bhp level. We weighed them (first time in full race spec, cage etc) and they were 845kg's. Then we weighed the S1 Elises with NA Hondas and 230bhp and they weighed 740kg's. At that point I'm not stupid, 100kg's is too much to be comparable so I made a post on the committee forum suggesting that either the NA Hondas are forced to carry balast (a point I readily suggested was a daft idea as that much balast could be dangerous) or that the VX's would need to move into Class A. (I'd spoken to Tom at the time and he didn't like the idea of being in class B in his first season of racing and didn't like the early TB car anyway (he only had a few laps in its defence) so it seemed the logical choice. The downside to this of course meant that class B was reduced (at that time) to just 4 cars so there was the suggestion that class B be removed (not by me). The reaction to this was that paul said he couldn't work with me and that I be removed.

All I did was my job - represent the VX220, if we're heavy compared to the Elises wasn't it my job to make that point?

However since all this things have moved on, we've developed the car further and I'm happy with the regs (indeed I've not complained since then, not once) and the only reason all this is coming up is that Paul has made the open statement that he doesn't want the VX's in. I dont care about the history or the personal issues, the VX's are compatable, within regs and haven't caused any issues whatseover, hence I'm hopeful we'll still be allowed to race.

[Joe-Turbo]

seem to remember john posting a breakdown on all costs a while ago, will have a search for it a bit later

[ad172]

seem to remember john posting a breakdown on all costs a while ago, will have a search for it a bit later

BWM Series rough costs

Edited by ad172, 20 July 2007 - 08:46 PM.

[Joe-Turbo]

new race report http://www.thorneymo...July_2007.shtml

[p4cks]

John, don't you feel this is all a bit personal and that the race organisers just really don't like the cut of your jib. I think it's disgraceful the way in which you have been treated, and how you are continually treated now for what seems like raising a valid point about safety(?)

[danyeates]

John,

photos of the Castle Coombe event are here:

CLICK

Sorry, only just got round to putting them up, as I've only just got broadband at the new place.

The ones of the duct you requested are on there.

Dan

[Dynamo]

To quote that post (by Paul I think) off SELOC:

"19-7-2007 at 09:26 PM: VX220's make up about 5% of LoTs membership and we have 1 or 2 on most days, we had 1 at Le Mans today."

Glad they noticed me It was a good fun day at Le Mans with SELOC and everyone was welcoming.
Great trip down there too. That day did teach me that VXTs need upgraded brakes for track day work (or racing) though.

On the subject of the Elise Trophy, it would be a shame if the VX's can't race next year. Let's hope they are allowed.

BTW John - you mentioned there is a third car that's not being raced....any way I could race this in 2007? Drop me a PM if it's at all possible.

Adrian.

[Joe-Turbo]

The third car was stolen, have a look http://www.vx220.org...opic=52433&st=0