613 replies to this topic

[C8RKH]

 

 

The death rate of Iceland is 0.5% of those tested, in the UK its nearly 1.5% that in itself should already be ringing alarm bells to using it as a piece of evidence to support your point of view. 

 

You cannot take one simple piece of data in a highly complex situation and announce Eureka, we have the answer. I am sorry, and respectfully, but that is just plain dumb. Not worth discussing further.

 

There a variety of factors that need to be taken into account, and they include population density. Number of social contacts and their type. Age groups. Pre-existing conditions. etc.

 

For instance, I would wager a small sum that the UK has more people affected by pollution in the UK, due to out Island being tightly packed in many places. This results in an excess number of conditions such as asthma amongst others. I would also say that generally the UK would have a higher proportion of people who were obese, and therefore either suffering with multiple health conditions such as diabetes, cardiovascular disease etc. If you want to compare groups of people, i.e., UK to Iceland, then you need to compare apples for apples to ensure you do not get misleading information.

 

For instance, some of the highest density of cases in the UK are in Barrow and Furnace and parts of remote Scotland. So that, just using a per capita argument would blow out of the water your general assumption.

 

In addition, unless I have miss understood, the BMA has today dropped its support of the Teachers stance and saying that there is not an increased risk to Teachers from Children. And finally, Denmark has undergone a controlled reopening of schools with no spike.

 

So, there are no guarantees. Good or bad. Lots of conflicting information and lots of people on the internet peddling unsound and unproven assumptions as facts.

 

There's no need for people to get angry with each other over this. But people need to think through what they are saying and what they are using to justify their position. It needs to be rational and need supportable with solid foundation in facts, not suppositions.  The internet has a lot to answer for.

 

If anyone wants to blame anyone for the perceived unavoidable deaths then I suggest you start first with the media who have behaved despicably, jumping on an excuse for a shock headline or to catch out a politician. You then want to blame the politicians for seizing on any and every opportunity for cheap point scoring and self promotion.  If the media and the opposition parties had actually put the country and her citizens first, rather than their own self promotion and interest, I predict we would be in a much better position all around.

[coldel]

 

 

 

The death rate of Iceland is 0.5% of those tested, in the UK its nearly 1.5% that in itself should already be ringing alarm bells to using it as a piece of evidence to support your point of view. 

 

You cannot take one simple piece of data in a highly complex situation and announce Eureka, we have the answer. I am sorry, and respectfully, but that is just plain dumb. Not worth discussing further.

 

There a variety of factors that need to be taken into account, and they include population density. Number of social contacts and their type. Age groups. Pre-existing conditions. etc.

 

For instance, I would wager a small sum that the UK has more people affected by pollution in the UK, due to out Island being tightly packed in many places. This results in an excess number of conditions such as asthma amongst others. I would also say that generally the UK would have a higher proportion of people who were obese, and therefore either suffering with multiple health conditions such as diabetes, cardiovascular disease etc. If you want to compare groups of people, i.e., UK to Iceland, then you need to compare apples for apples to ensure you do not get misleading information.

 

For instance, some of the highest density of cases in the UK are in Barrow and Furnace and parts of remote Scotland. So that, just using a per capita argument would blow out of the water your general assumption.

 

In addition, unless I have miss understood, the BMA has today dropped its support of the Teachers stance and saying that there is not an increased risk to Teachers from Children. And finally, Denmark has undergone a controlled reopening of schools with no spike.

 

So, there are no guarantees. Good or bad. Lots of conflicting information and lots of people on the internet peddling unsound and unproven assumptions as facts.

 

There's no need for people to get angry with each other over this. But people need to think through what they are saying and what they are using to justify their position. It needs to be rational and need supportable with solid foundation in facts, not suppositions.  The internet has a lot to answer for.

 

If anyone wants to blame anyone for the perceived unavoidable deaths then I suggest you start first with the media who have behaved despicably, jumping on an excuse for a shock headline or to catch out a politician. You then want to blame the politicians for seizing on any and every opportunity for cheap point scoring and self promotion.  If the media and the opposition parties had actually put the country and her citizens first, rather than their own self promotion and interest, I predict we would be in a much better position all around.

 

 

Yes, we do agree on the data. You cannot take one piece of information in a highly complex situation and eureka answer, which is why the Iceland study link is a complete waste of time, I am glad we agree on that one. As you say you have to account for all the different factors that apply to the UK vs Iceland - as you hinted to above and that I overtly stated the Icelandics are by their very nature isolationists and seclusive, along with different demographics, inherent conditions, environment so on and so forth. To think that report is in any way pre-cursor to a conversation showing that its safe to open UK schools is just ridiculous.

 

Yes the BMA have dropped their opposition, conditionally, and we are yet to meet those conditions. Track and Trace will be key to moving forwards which the unions and the BMA were calling out for, and we were well behind on that. They are now saying its back on target for surprise surprise start of June, I wonder how they came to that date...It's thanks to the challenge of the BMA and other authorities that Track and Trace has been pushed up the agenda.

 

I also agree with you that the media has been deplorable, I work for a supermarket and the behaviour of the media sensationalising the virus and causing widespread panic buying was roundly denounced within the industry. It put lives at risk, both workers and the most vulnerable who cannot get what they need. 

 

I get there is quite a heavy Tory majority on this forum, and that despite being a Tory voter myself for years but no longer you will think it's purely politics at play here but questions need to be asked of the government. My mate runs the biggest renewable energy company in the UK, he had no idea of the announcement on Sunday night to go back to work the following day and spent all night communicating to his staff to tell them to ignore the PM's announcement - then we saw the government change that day to Weds the following day. If an enquiry into the mistakes is not had after all this then mistakes will not become lessons learned. 

 

I have an 8 year old boy who is desperate to go to school, but he also has a 60 year old teacher. It would be devastating to him and his friends if anything were to happen to that teacher because of a rushed policy of back to school and key requirements missed because they were not properly consulted and implemented.

 

Anyway, I am done on this particular thread. We have all had our say. Stay safe all.

[PaulCP]

Yes questions need to be asked of the Govt but at the right time which is not now.

 

In the meantime ask yourself a question “how would Comrade Corbyn have dealt with this”

 

As I’ve mentioned before, Corbyn is sat at home saying to himself “thank fcuk I didn’t get elected, I would have had to make a decision when I couldn’t even decide if I was leave or remain”

 

Its always easy to criticise when you are outside of the circle with zero responsibility for making any form of decision, a trait that the majority are experts at portraying.

[quimbles]

I'm off down Goodwood for an ice cream.
Mmmmmmm delicious

[coldel]

Yes questions need to be asked of the Govt but at the right time which is not now.

In the meantime ask yourself a question “how would Comrade Corbyn have dealt with this”

As I’ve mentioned before, Corbyn is sat at home saying to himself “thank fcuk I didn’t get elected, I would have had to make a decision when I couldn’t even decide if I was leave or remain”

Its always easy to criticise when you are outside of the circle with zero responsibility for making any form of decision, a trait that the majority are experts at portraying.

I’m not a Corbyn fan either. And he would have been equally if not more dithering! I guess one thing he would have done is ploughed the cash into the public services (at the expense of the economy of course) that would have better managed the the challenges seen by the police and NHS.


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[techieboy]

Yes questions need to be asked of the Govt but at the right time which is not now.

 

In the meantime ask yourself a question “how would Comrade Corbyn have dealt with this”

 

As I’ve mentioned before, Corbyn is sat at home saying to himself “thank fcuk I didn’t get elected, I would have had to make a decision when I couldn’t even decide if I was leave or remain”

 

Its always easy to criticise when you are outside of the circle with zero responsibility for making any form of decision, a trait that the majority are experts at portraying.

 

Awww, come on Paul, be fair. Magic Grandpa would have seen in it coming and would have locked down in December, about 30 minutes after winning the election. Everyone would be at home on some benevolent furlough scheme on 100% of their wages. Apart from those in unions, who would be on 120% due to their unstinting solidarity and key voter worker status. Oh and those pesky "rich" people that earn more than £79,999 or whatever Diane Abbots base MP's salary is these days, they will just have to whistle for it and should take it as a lesson in not living off the labours of the downtrodden masses.

 

In a show of one one-upmanship over his 2,000yr old namesake (or initials-sake), sod feeding the 5,000, that's small time. He'd have gathered all hospital and care home supply managers around an inland sea somewhere (probably a reservoir in north Islington in reality), absolved them of any responsibility for sourcing it themselves and with his touch alone would have created 5 billion pieces of correct (for this type of virus), standards approved, in-date pieces of near military NBC warfare suit grade PPE for them all to take away with them. Clearly he'd have made doubly sure of future supplies by joining the much vaunted EU group effort to source PPE and ventilators that's performed so well to date.

 

Being the all powerful and prescient being he is, he'd have gone back in time and created a Government owned diagnostics testing industry that could have sat idle for 15 years since foot and mouth, just waiting to be needed to cover all of the testing needs for the two 100% infallible types of test that his scientists would have developed within hours of getting the first virus sample from China. He'd have realised that the terrible inconvenience of having to travel a few miles to get a test, whilst the system was being ramped up, would be too much and would have mobilised his Momentum shocktroops political officers highly skilled medical workers to every street corner and every company in the country to carry out a compulsory daily testing regime. The non-medically qualified Momentum members would obviously be put to use in following monitoring contact tracing and shutting down any online criticism virus outbreaks.

 

Clearly not wishing to pre-empt the findings of Labours very own classically independent inquiry (where they go in with a preferred outcome and make all the evidence fit that, to prove they were right all along) into the impact of the virus on different racial and socio-economic groups, I think it's plainly obvious that if only everyone from a low skilled/low paid/gig/BAME/migrant/Labour voting background had just been given a 6 bedroom, >3/4 acre home in Surrey, a nice corner office with good views in a building in the city to work from and a HEPA filtered Tesla to use, the numbers would have been nowhere near as bad so a program of property sequestration and re-allocation would easily fix that. Despicable racist anti-migrant Englanders. Obviously not the Scots. Welsh and Irish. More put upon minorities.

 

Oh and free allotments for everyone.

 

Pay for it, you ask? Well that's easy. We'll just abolish capitalism, the banks, private ownership of businesses and property and come up with a different system. Sorted.

[Zoobeef]

 

My mate runs the biggest renewable energy company in the UK, he had no idea of the announcement on Sunday night to go back to work the following day and spent all night communicating to his staff to tell them to ignore the PM's announcement - then we saw the government change that day to Weds the following day. If an enquiry into the mistakes is not had after all this then mistakes will not become lessons learned. 

 

 

 

Which part of the governments advice changed for your mate? The message was always:

Work from home where possible

Go to work if you cant

Unless you are on the must close list

 

His staff should have been at work anyway.

[coldel]

 

 

My mate runs the biggest renewable energy company in the UK, he had no idea of the announcement on Sunday night to go back to work the following day and spent all night communicating to his staff to tell them to ignore the PM's announcement - then we saw the government change that day to Weds the following day. If an enquiry into the mistakes is not had after all this then mistakes will not become lessons learned. 

 

 

 

Which part of the governments advice changed for your mate? The message was always:

Work from home where possible

Go to work if you cant

Unless you are on the must close list

 

His staff should have been at work anyway.

 

 

No they shouldn't have been working, the elements of his business that involve manufacturing, construction etc. of the infrastructure were told to go back to work by Boris and he had to throw the brakes on and ensure the back to work process was done orderly and safely and that people do not return to work of their own volition. Similarly in the company I work for which has 180,000 people had to get an email first thing Monday morning from the CEO clarifying what our working conditions were given what had come the previous night - albeit we were less affected. 

 

Look, you have your view, I have mine. I think we have exchanged enough aggressive comments which got out of hand and personally want to draw a line under it. I am sure you are a nice guy and look forwards to having a beer sometime at a VX meet so am not going to keep the debate tennis going on this point. Stay safe.

[Zoobeef]

Manufacturing and construction were never told to close. Some closed because of the histerical public telling them they were killing people. Boris was reiterating that it was fine for them to be open.

 

[PaulCP]

 

Yes questions need to be asked of the Govt but at the right time which is not now.

 

In the meantime ask yourself a question “how would Comrade Corbyn have dealt with this”

 

As I’ve mentioned before, Corbyn is sat at home saying to himself “thank fcuk I didn’t get elected, I would have had to make a decision when I couldn’t even decide if I was leave or remain”

 

Its always easy to criticise when you are outside of the circle with zero responsibility for making any form of decision, a trait that the majority are experts at portraying.

 

Awww, come on Paul, be fair. Magic Grandpa would have seen in it coming and would have locked down in December, about 30 minutes after winning the election. Everyone would be at home on some benevolent furlough scheme on 100% of their wages. Apart from those in unions, who would be on 120% due to their unstinting solidarity and key voter worker status. Oh and those pesky "rich" people that earn more than £79,999 or whatever Diane Abbots base MP's salary is these days, they will just have to whistle for it and should take it as a lesson in not living off the labours of the downtrodden masses.

 

In a show of one one-upmanship over his 2,000yr old namesake (or initials-sake), sod feeding the 5,000, that's small time. He'd have gathered all hospital and care home supply managers around an inland sea somewhere (probably a reservoir in north Islington in reality), absolved them of any responsibility for sourcing it themselves and with his touch alone would have created 5 billion pieces of correct (for this type of virus), standards approved, in-date pieces of near military NBC warfare suit grade PPE for them all to take away with them. Clearly he'd have made doubly sure of future supplies by joining the much vaunted EU group effort to source PPE and ventilators that's performed so well to date.

 

Being the all powerful and prescient being he is, he'd have gone back in time and created a Government owned diagnostics testing industry that could have sat idle for 15 years since foot and mouth, just waiting to be needed to cover all of the testing needs for the two 100% infallible types of test that his scientists would have developed within hours of getting the first virus sample from China. He'd have realised that the terrible inconvenience of having to travel a few miles to get a test, whilst the system was being ramped up, would be too much and would have mobilised his Momentum shocktroops political officers highly skilled medical workers to every street corner and every company in the country to carry out a compulsory daily testing regime. The non-medically qualified Momentum members would obviously be put to use in following monitoring contact tracing and shutting down any online criticism virus outbreaks.

 

Clearly not wishing to pre-empt the findings of Labours very own classically independent inquiry (where they go in with a preferred outcome and make all the evidence fit that, to prove they were right all along) into the impact of the virus on different racial and socio-economic groups, I think it's plainly obvious that if only everyone from a low skilled/low paid/gig/BAME/migrant/Labour voting background had just been given a 6 bedroom, >3/4 acre home in Surrey, a nice corner office with good views in a building in the city to work from and a HEPA filtered Tesla to use, the numbers would have been nowhere near as bad so a program of property sequestration and re-allocation would easily fix that. Despicable racist anti-migrant Englanders. Obviously not the Scots. Welsh and Irish. More put upon minorities.

 

Oh and free allotments for everyone.

 

Pay for it, you ask? Well that's easy. We'll just abolish capitalism, the banks, private ownership of businesses and property and come up with a different system. Sorted.

 

😄👍

 

You forgot to mention that the Nation’s mental health will have been taken care of by encouraging people to Zoom each other by paying them £10/kb used on their recently installed free broadband

[coldel]

Manufacturing and construction were never told to close. Some closed because of the histerical public telling them they were killing people. Boris was reiterating that it was fine for them to be open.

 

Look, you don't understand the point at hand. So lets leave it there. Two thirds of construction in the UK for instance had not worked during lockdown because they couldn't guarantee the social distancing that was being enforced and felt it was not conducive to the lockdown and safety of employees to continue to work. That is a decision made by the business, not by Boris. Boris announces with no warning on Sunday at 7pm that 'those what cant work at home, should go to work starting Monday' - this meant his advice conflicted with the business instructions given to employees at that time, hence the reason businesses had to act fast to reaffirm the instructions to their employees. This understandably caused conflicting instructions to what business leaders were giving their staff, it really is that simple, and why Boris moved on Monday to change his mind to Weds for his returning to work instruction.

 

I get the feeling you like to last word of oneupmanship, even when I answer your questions and offer an olive branch to draw a line under it. So please do crack on, but thats all you will get out of me answering simple questions like this one, this is definitely my last post in this thread. 

[siztenboots]

I wonder if Nicola Sturgeon can announce the winning euromillion numbers ahead of national lottery

[techieboy]

😄👍

 

You forgot to mention that the Nation’s mental health will have been taken care of by encouraging people to Zoom each other by paying them £10/kb used on their recently installed free broadband

 

 

Very true. Nor should we forget the the particular strain this puts on our brothers/sisters/gender neutral relative/non-relative of your choice in the LGBTQ+-+-+-+-+ community who, so I read on the BBC t'other day, have been totally forgotten in amongst all of this.

[techieboy]

I wonder if Nicola Sturgeon can announce the winning euromillion numbers ahead of national lottery

 

I wouldn't put it past her and her desire to out announce anyone in Christendom.

[C8RKH]

 

 

No they shouldn't have been working, the elements of his business that involve manufacturing, construction etc. of the infrastructure were told to go back to work by Boris and he had to throw the brakes on and ensure the back to work process was done orderly and safely and that people do not return to work of their own volition. Similarly in the company I work for which has 180,000 people had to get an email first thing Monday morning from the CEO clarifying what our working conditions were given what had come the previous night - albeit we were less affected. 

 

 

But that is not quite correct though is it, and yet again, fuelled by the press (the BBC largely here) and opposition MP's and parties the Prime Ministers carefully crafted words where taken out of context and miss-quoted.  You will see what he said below, a direct copy of his text. Contrary to populist opinion he did NOT say on Sunday night that people should go back to work Monday morning en-masse and so only gave 12 hours notice.  It is this complete and utter bollock twisting of facts that I am just sick and tired of. People need to actually just sit back and reflect a little bit before going off on one. Again, read carefully what he ACTUALLY said and it is a whole different tone of message to the "12 hours notice" nonsense that has been put out there by the biased and unprincipled press and opposition. It's also total and utter bollocks because for the 48 hours BEFORE he spoke the press was telling us what he was going to say - pity they got it wrong though eh! The Wednesday reference was in their the Sunday night as "from this Wednesday, we want to encourage people to take more control and even unlimited amounts of outdoor exercise". The clarificstion on Monday was done to completely dense fookwits in the population and the press not actually listening to what was said on the Sunday night!

 

And so no, this is not the time simply to end the lockdown this week.

Instead we are taking the first careful steps to modify our measures.

And the first step is a change of emphasis that we hope that people will act on this week.

We said that you should work from home if you can, and only go to work if you must.

We now need to stress that anyone who can’t work from home, for instance those in construction or manufacturing, should be actively encouraged to go to work.

And we want it to be safe for you to get to work. So you should avoid public transport if at all possible – because we must and will maintain social distancing, and capacity will therefore be limited.

 

So work from home if you can, but you should go to work if you can’t work from home.

And to ensure you are safe at work we have been working to establish new guidance for employers to make workplaces COVID-secure.

Edited by C8RKH, 21 May 2020 - 02:51 PM.

[Zoobeef]

 

Manufacturing and construction were never told to close. Some closed because of the histerical public telling them they were killing people. Boris was reiterating that it was fine for them to be open.

 

Look, you don't understand the point at hand. So lets leave it there. Two thirds of construction in the UK for instance had not worked during lockdown because they couldn't guarantee the social distancing that was being enforced and felt it was not conducive to the lockdown and safety of employees to continue to work. That is a decision made by the business, not by Boris. Boris announces with no warning on Sunday at 7pm that 'those what cant work at home, should go to work starting Monday' - this meant his advice conflicted with the business instructions given to employees at that time, hence the reason businesses had to act fast to reaffirm the instructions to their employees. This understandably caused conflicting instructions to what business leaders were giving their staff, it really is that simple, and why Boris moved on Monday to change his mind to Weds for his returning to work instruction.

 

I get the feeling you like to last word of oneupmanship, even when I answer your questions and offer an olive branch to draw a line under it. So please do crack on, but thats all you will get out of me answering simple questions like this one, this is definitely my last post in this thread. 

 

 

He originally said, if you cant work from home go to work.

He said on the 17th that if you cant work from home, go to work.

 

I cant see why that is confusing you so much. He didn't change the message.

[FLD]

 

Yes questions need to be asked of the Govt but at the right time which is not now.

 

In the meantime ask yourself a question “how would Comrade Corbyn have dealt with this”

 

As I’ve mentioned before, Corbyn is sat at home saying to himself “thank fcuk I didn’t get elected, I would have had to make a decision when I couldn’t even decide if I was leave or remain”

 

Its always easy to criticise when you are outside of the circle with zero responsibility for making any form of decision, a trait that the majority are experts at portraying.

 

Awww, come on Paul, be fair. Magic Grandpa would have seen in it coming and would have locked down in December, about 30 minutes after winning the election. Everyone would be at home on some benevolent furlough scheme on 100% of their wages. Apart from those in unions, who would be on 120% due to their unstinting solidarity and key voter worker status. Oh and those pesky "rich" people that earn more than £79,999 or whatever Diane Abbots base MP's salary is these days, they will just have to whistle for it and should take it as a lesson in not living off the labours of the downtrodden masses.

 

In a show of one one-upmanship over his 2,000yr old namesake (or initials-sake), sod feeding the 5,000, that's small time. He'd have gathered all hospital and care home supply managers around an inland sea somewhere (probably a reservoir in north Islington in reality), absolved them of any responsibility for sourcing it themselves and with his touch alone would have created 5 billion pieces of correct (for this type of virus), standards approved, in-date pieces of near military NBC warfare suit grade PPE for them all to take away with them. Clearly he'd have made doubly sure of future supplies by joining the much vaunted EU group effort to source PPE and ventilators that's performed so well to date.

 

Being the all powerful and prescient being he is, he'd have gone back in time and created a Government owned diagnostics testing industry that could have sat idle for 15 years since foot and mouth, just waiting to be needed to cover all of the testing needs for the two 100% infallible types of test that his scientists would have developed within hours of getting the first virus sample from China. He'd have realised that the terrible inconvenience of having to travel a few miles to get a test, whilst the system was being ramped up, would be too much and would have mobilised his Momentum shocktroops political officers highly skilled medical workers to every street corner and every company in the country to carry out a compulsory daily testing regime. The non-medically qualified Momentum members would obviously be put to use in following monitoring contact tracing and shutting down any online criticism virus outbreaks.

 

Clearly not wishing to pre-empt the findings of Labours very own classically independent inquiry (where they go in with a preferred outcome and make all the evidence fit that, to prove they were right all along) into the impact of the virus on different racial and socio-economic groups, I think it's plainly obvious that if only everyone from a low skilled/low paid/gig/BAME/migrant/Labour voting background had just been given a 6 bedroom, >3/4 acre home in Surrey, a nice corner office with good views in a building in the city to work from and a HEPA filtered Tesla to use, the numbers would have been nowhere near as bad so a program of property sequestration and re-allocation would easily fix that. Despicable racist anti-migrant Englanders. Obviously not the Scots. Welsh and Irish. More put upon minorities.

 

Oh and free allotments for everyone.

 

Pay for it, you ask? Well that's easy. We'll just abolish capitalism, the banks, private ownership of businesses and property and come up with a different system. Sorted.

 

 

Whilst this is rather amusing you have got this so very wrong.

wrong wrong WRONG!

 

The country would be so FUBAR that even the virus wouldn't want to come here. 
 

[sford]

Stuff

 

 

Don't let that stand in the way of some sensationalist reporting to enable the millions of people to vent in their droves about how it is offending/upsetting/causing anxiety etc about how badly the government has handled this. It becus they are all rich boys wot went to Eton and are to get all us workin folk. The media seem to love making anyone with the slightest bit of wealth/status behind them seem like the child catcher from Chitty Chitty Bang Bang. 

 

Opinions are like arseholes. Everyone has one, I don't want/need to see it. If I want to see if, I'll ask you. 

 

nb, I wonder how the LBGTQRSTUVWXYZ community are feeling about the appropriation of the rainbow colours for the cause. 

[C8RKH]

Usurped?

[casino]

Anyone else see that brilliant picture of the bundle of snappers squirming at Cummings’ front gate? 
 

Fecking news media bullshite rattling the stick in the feeding bucket for every lefty news presenter and MP.