237 replies to this topic

[Elaine]

Unfortunately airgun = amateursville as far as shooting is concerned. Poor range, poor stopping power, ideal for maiming and injuring without a clean kill more often than not.

I don't know what your shooting credentials are, but you're obviously ill-informed when it comes to law abiding UK airgunners, because that's utter bollox if you follow the simple rules! And if it wasn't, the sport would have been banned by now!

Copied & Pasted from the BASC website:-

* BIRDS: (covered by the open general licences) crows, rooks, jackdaws, magpies, jays, woodpigeon, collared doves, feral pigeons.
* MAMMALS: brown rats, grey squirrels, stoats, mink and rabbits

Respect for the quarry

Always shoot well within your capabilities.
Practise on targets, never on live quarry, to establish the maximum range at which you and your rifle can consistently hit the point of aim that will ensure a clean kill; this is usually the head, and normally has a maximum diameter of about three centimetres (an inch and a quarter).
Practise regularly to improve your shooting and stalking skills.

Make sure you know where the kill zone is for each species that you are going to hunt.
For mammals the side-on head shot is the preferred target.
For birds, head shots are effective but difficult because the target area is very small and rarely holds still. Shots to the breast or body cavity give a bigger target area but remember that dense feathers or a crop full of grain will limit the pellet’s effectiveness. The area under the wing is a good place to aim for.

You must zero your rifle and sights (check their correct alignment) before starting any hunt; usually a riflescope will come with instructions on how to do this, otherwise there are many books which explain the principles.

Suitable air rifles for hunting

Always ensure that your air rifle is powerful enough to achieve a clean kill of your chosen quarry and do not attempt a shot of more than 30 metres. Generally the ideal power level is just over 11 ft lb (15J). For an air rifle that is more powerful than 12 ft lb, (16.25J) you must have a firearm certificate.

Never shoot at partially obscured quarry or shoot at quarry which could escape into cover before it can be retrieved. For example, do not shoot rabbits which are less than two metres from their burrow.

Certain types of air rifle are more suitable for hunting than others. Avoid those air rifles which take excessive time to charge, load and fire. Repeating air rifles give an immediate second shot which is always an advantage.
All air rifles must be well maintained in accordance with the manufacturer's recommendations. If in doubt - consult your local dealer.

Choose pellets which are designed for hunting. These will produce a cleaner kill than those which are intended for target shooting. Check every pellet before loading to ensure that it is not damaged or deformed.

E.

Edited by Elaine, 29 September 2008 - 05:52 AM.

[oblomov]

My credentials are that I'm an ex Royal Marine, sniper trained. I've forgotten more about shooting just about every type of weapon than you've ever learned, including the bow and arrow and catapult. I've spent more time shooting than you've spent on the lavatory. What are your credentials then?....errrrr.... oh yes, you don't actually have any. You're an out and out very inexperienced amateur with a peashooter, and it shows. All that guff you've posted proves my point. Without going into detail, basically it's amateurish twaddle to justify the unjustifiable, with talk of theoretical 'clean kills' which is highly misleading about what is achievable, that is what will actually happen in the real world with a very underpowered weapon. The fact you post to this 'evidence' and consider it to contain arguments of value in some way simply highlights your basic ignorance of the very limited capability of the weapon in question. Air rifles are underpowered and will not give consistently clean kills. Anyone who shoots with an air rifle knows this to be so. I know because God knows how many animals and birds have suffered at my hands through the use of a very high powered air rifle when such things were not my concern, not to mention all the animals I've snared and trapped. If you need a telescopic sight on an air rifle then you're either a rubbish shot or shooting 'quarry' at ranges well beyond any hope of a clean kill, but then if you've been shooting animals/birds with an air rifle you already know this very well despite your attempted arguments to the contrary. I don't have many areas of great expertise but shooting happens to be one of them. You look through the scope, windage and elevation have been calculated, you're aware that on a dew laden morning the relative humidity can raise the breech pressure as the bullet leaves you rifle, from 20 tons per square inch to over 25, the cross hairs, line up on a man's head, relax, breath out, suspend breathing, and gently..... squeeze the trigger. His head jerks a small hard movement, a mist of something momentarily behind. I had to ID the first man I shot. He was on his back, eyes open; just a small almost insignificant purple mark on his cheek below his left eye. Didn't look much until we picked him up. The whole of the back of his head was missing; most of his brain blown out of the cavity. On a dawn ambush once, the only person visible to shoot at was the cook, up bright and early going about his chores. The whistle blew, and the cook's head exploded, a headless body hit the floor, from the crossfire. If you've seen and done these things, and have any humanity, the killing of anything is not something to be taken lightly. There's a paradigm shift in understanding about the real nature of killing, especially totally unnecessarily as a 'sport' which is the self indulgent killing and maiming of animals and birds that are defenceless, and in real terms have just as much right as you or I to exist. Don't give me any arguments about 'control' and 'necessary', I've got land of my own. I don't snare the fox that I've never seen that crosses it every night leaving a distinctive recognizable 'run' where it comes in from the road and goes out into neighbouring land. I don't shoot the pigeons, the ring doves, the gulls, jackdaws carrion crows or rooks or the polecat I saw last week simply because it's easy to salve my conscience and dismiss their right to life by using a pejorative adjective to describe them as 'vermin', and, it makes no difference whatsoever to the management of my land. What we need for you is a five mile square area in Africa. You can go in at one side with a proper rifle and a fellow shooting enthusiast can go in the other. You hunt each other until one of you is dead. An adversary on equal terms shooting back. Not I realize quite as difficult a problem as dealing with a killer blood lust rabbit or a marauding razor clawed wood pigeon eh? So, fancy that then? Put your money where your mouth is with a 'quarry' that meets you on equal terms? No? Why ever not? Not happy to play the game on equal terms? Now how did I guess that? xxxcking amateurs, I tell you, all p*ss and wind and no substance. So, how do my shooting credentials compare with yours?

Edited by oblomov, 29 September 2008 - 08:28 PM.

[LazyDonkey]

Popcorn anyone ?

[XXX]

Any one see Top Trumps on TV tonight...??

[jules_s]

Popcorn anyone ?

I'll take a bucket of salted flavour please....

[VXJON]

Popcorn anyone ?

I'll take a bucket of salted flavour please....

Salted popcorn ??

Back when I was in Nam only the kong would eat the salty popcorn, real men eat toffee flavour

[Guy182]

hoping to visit here with a mate shortly!

http://www.sharemyro...te/details.aspx

praying for some dryish weekends!

[MaDFreeBiRD]

fcuk me oblomov

[Pooh Bear]

Oblomov for Prime Minister

[ChrisO]

Jesus…. I know nothing of pest control, how necessary it is in rural areas, how effective hunting in the name of pest control is etc etc and I am certainly no massively emotional animal rights activist… However. Researching how to kill an animal with a gun is fcuked up beyond all compassion. If this has to be done in the name of conservation then, unfortunately that’s life, but why any one would volunteer to the cause is way beyond my understanding of the human condition. Oblomov, huge respect.

[theotherhalf]

My credentials are that I'm an ex Royal Marine, sniper trained.

Oblomov, if you take a look at the 'Kings Badge' Board (I assume you know what that is) you will see the name Kevin Bland.
Kev Bland is my best mate, he also shoots air rifle pest control with Elaine................
Air Rifles aren't like what they were in the 70's, they're easily powerful and accurate enough to daspatch vermin at suitable distances.
Have a read here, plenty of current and ex forces shoot air rifles with great success.

Edited by theotherhalf, 30 September 2008 - 06:24 AM.

[theotherhalf]

Forgot to mention that the Game Keeper who asked us to pest control is ex Para, so I'm sure his & Kev's shooting credentials are upto it.

[wrightster]

Elaine/theotherhalf this is obviously an emotive controversial subject, one that i happen to feel pretty strongly about and do have a reasonable amount of knowledge about. So far i have stayed out of this as it is primarily a car forum but yes i did ask what peolple do during the winter - stupid me another heated debate Anyway all i am asking is that you stop copying and pasting articles that are pretty one sided and you feel justify your need to shoot small animals maybe they do justify it maybe they dont but plesae they are obviously bothering some people and as said by ChrisO i cannot understand why anyone would want to volunteer to do this either is it really fun? well it might be to you but its certainly not to everyones taste.

[theotherhalf]

Elaine/theotherhalf this is obviously an emotive controversial subject, one that i happen to feel pretty strongly about and do have a reasonable amount of knowledge about. So far i have stayed out of this as it is primarily a car forum but yes i did ask what peolple do during the winter - stupid me another heated debate
Anyway all i am asking is that you stop copying and pasting articles that are pretty one sided and you feel justify your need to shoot small animals maybe they do justify it maybe they dont but plesae they are obviously bothering some people and as said by ChrisO i cannot understand why anyone would want to volunteer to do this either is it really fun? well it might be to you but its certainly not to everyones taste.

In anwser to your question, land owners have to control pest species by law.
An example of why it's needed, man introduced the American Grey Squirrel, it has displaced our native Red, (when was the last time you saw a Red Squirrel?). Thus man has to regain control of the Grey, for the good our our now much rarer Red.
Another example why pest control is needed, is where people have released Mink from farms to save them from the fur trade. Unfortunately the biggest killer of our native Water Vole is Mink.......
So you see, sometimes you do have to be cruel to be kind.

Edited by theotherhalf, 30 September 2008 - 07:57 AM.

[Pooh Bear]

Reg/Elaine, you have totally missed the point of what Wrightster was trying to diplomatically say, and its quite simple.

The subject is controversial. Disputable. Arguable.

You might change peoples opinion on whether pest control is needed.

But you will not change peoples views on what they consider or believe to be an acceptable 'sport' or 'hobby'.

You have after-all, replied on a thread which is asking about winter hobbies. Things which we perceive to be fun and enjoyable.
Then you have explained/justified your actions by the the explanation that it is pest control.

Your bottom line is you shoot animals for fun albeit pest control.

You said it "So you see, sometimes you do have to be cruel to be kind" your words! At least we can all agree it is cruel. And its your hobby....

[LY_Scott]

I love this forum. It never fails to amaze me how we can have an educated discussion on here about absolutely anything. Wot a bunch.

[theotherhalf]

You have after-all, replied on a thread which is asking about winter hobbies. Things which we perceive to be fun and enjoyable. Yes I do find it enjoyable, it lets me see wildlife that most people don't get to see. Last Sunday I saw a Nuthatch and a Treecreeper, most people couldn't even describe what either look like, let alone have seen one.
Then you have explained/justified your actions by the the explanation that it is pest control. I would expect anyone to explain their actions after being called sick, while participating in a legal activity........
Your bottom line is you shoot animals for fun albeit pest control. I haven't said anywhere shooting pests was fun, I find it enjoyable helping our native species have some room to breathe. Although when it comes to Rats, that is fun!
You said it "So you see, sometimes you do have to be cruel to be kind" your words! At least we can all agree it is cruel. It's called coining a phrase

You seem to be under the impression shooters are just heartless murders of animals, which for the most is about as far from the truth as it gets.

*off to enjoy eating my egg sarnie (made with eggs from our 8 much loved hens).

[oblomov]

[
Air Rifles aren't like what they were in the 70's, they're easily powerful and accurate enough to dispatch vermin at suitable distances.

What's the matter, can't Elaine fight her corner?

With air rifle suitable distances means spitting distance. As I said I know about air rifles, I handle them on a regular basis. Their power is limited by law and they are no more powerful than they ever were, in fact less because of enforced legislation. In the real world of killing animals the situation is that unfortunately they don't conveniently drop down dead. The use of euphemisms like 'dispatch' instead of 'kill' indicate your defensiveness. I repeat I know, I've shot enough animals in my time and the truth is that people who shoot animals for sport don't actually even care if they botch the shot.

The truth is that any suffering caused to an animal is of no concern whatsoever to 'sport' shooters except in situations like this where their actions are under scrutiny hence specious and tendentious arguments and denial of the truth of what really happens. If sport shooters had any concern for the animals they shoot they wouldn't be shooting them in the first place would they?

'Sport' shooters should have the courage of their convictions. Instead of pretending that animals are ‘dispatched’ cleanly every time, tell the truth about the real world of killing animals for sport. You should say:

"I shoot and kill animals because I enjoy it. It's inevitable they will suffer, and some will suffer greatly, especially when they crawl away to die a slow death in a hole somewhere. Because I use a weapon that's not up to the job this happens on a fairly frequent basis, but that's OK. because I don't actually give a sh*t about any pain or suffering I cause them. In reality that's the nature of my sport, I cause them suffering and I don't care.

Instead we have shooters attempting to defend their actions by denying the reality of what actually happens when you shoot and kill animals on a regular basis. Doctrinaire arguments about what's required by 'Law' are red herrings. Is your land overrun by grey squirrels and marauding mink? If so (which I doubt) then the most efficient and time effective way to control the sitaution is to trap them, but of course if you trap, the downside is you can't take pleasure in shooting them and making them suffer.

It's interesting that there is no mention of the shooting cats, domestic or feral. Any game keeper will tell you that predation by cats, domestic and feral is a far greater threat than any posed by foxes polecats etc because they are generally far more numerous. If you need to control mink and other predators then you must also have a problem with the ubiquitous moggy. These animals are shot on the Q.T. A nod and a wink nothing said and never acknowledged in public. As for clean shots, has anyone has ever seen a cat shot? If so you'll understand why they say they have nine lives; cats don't die easily.

[oblomov]

Air Rifles aren't like what they were in the 70's, they're easily powerful and accurate enough to dispatch vermin at suitable distances.

What's the matter, can't Elaine fight her corner?

With an air rifle suitable distances means spitting distance. As I said I know about air rifles, I know the balistics, the muzzle velocities, the drop of the ineffectual pellet over distance, the lack of killing power, I handle them on a regular basis. Their power is limited by law and they are no more powerful than they ever were, in fact less because of enforced legislation. In the real world of killing animals the situation is that unfortunately they don't conveniently drop down dead. The use of euphemisms like 'dispatch' instead of 'kill' indicate your defensiveness. I repeat I know, I've shot enough animals in my time and the truth is that people who shoot animals for sport don't actually even care if they botch the shot.

The truth is that any suffering caused to an animal is of no concern whatsoever to 'sport' shooters except in situations like this where their actions are under scrutiny hence specious and tendentious arguments and denial of the truth of what really happens. If sport shooters had any concern for the animals they shoot they wouldn't be shooting them in the first place would they?

'Sport' shooters should have the courage of their convictions. Instead of pretending that animals are ‘dispatched’ cleanly every time, tell the truth about the real world of killing animals for sport. You should say:

"I shoot and kill animals because I enjoy it. It's inevitable they will suffer, and some will suffer greatly, especially when they crawl away to die a slow death in a hole somewhere. Because I use a weapon that's not up to the job this happens on a fairly frequent basis, but that's OK. because I don't actually give a sh*t about any pain or suffering I cause them. In reality that's the nature of my sport, I cause them suffering and I don't care.

Instead we have shooters attempting to defend their actions by denying the reality of what actually happens when you shoot and kill animals on a regular basis. Doctrinaire arguments about what's required by 'Law' are red herrings. Is your land overrun by grey squirrels and marauding mink? If so (which I doubt) then the most efficient and time effective way to control the sitaution is to trap them, but of course if you trap, the downside is you can't take pleasure in shooting them and making them suffer.

It's interesting that there is no mention of the shooting cats, domestic or feral. Any game keeper will tell you that predation by cats, domestic and feral is a far greater threat than any posed by foxes polecats etc because they are generally far more numerous. If you need to control mink and other predators then you must also have a problem with the ubiquitous moggy. These animals are shot on the Q.T. A nod and a wink nothing said and never acknowledged in public. As for clean shots, has anyone has ever seen a cat shot? If so you'll understand why they say they have nine lives; cats don't die easily.

Edited by oblomov, 30 September 2008 - 11:28 AM.

[wrightster]

You have after-all, replied on a thread which is asking about winter hobbies. Things which we perceive to be fun and enjoyable. Yes I do find it enjoyable, it lets me see wildlife that most people don't get to see. Last Sunday I saw a Nuthatch and a Treecreeper, most people couldn't even describe what either look like, let alone have seen one.
Then you have explained/justified your actions by the the explanation that it is pest control. I would expect anyone to explain their actions after being called sick, while participating in a legal activity........
Your bottom line is you shoot animals for fun albeit pest control. I haven't said anywhere shooting pests was fun, I find it enjoyable helping our native species have some room to breathe. Although when it comes to Rats, that is fun!
You said it "So you see, sometimes you do have to be cruel to be kind" your words! At least we can all agree it is cruel. It's called coining a phrase

You seem to be under the impression shooters are just heartless murders of animals, which for the most is about as far from the truth as it gets.

*off to enjoy eating my egg sarnie (made with eggs from our 8 much loved hens).

Reg, do you enjoy shooting the animals or do you do it purely out of the goodness of your heart for the preservation of the countryside?