103 replies to this topic

[VXT Tim]

Hmm, cant help but think 'thank god' when you wrote that price. As i've just bought a CC

Hmm, cant help but think 'thank god' when you wrote that price. As i've just bought a CC

I thought it would be around the £600-700 mark

other than a slight weight saving then charge cooling still appears to be the only sensible option.
£600 would've made it more of a decision.

[VXTyrant]

other than a slight weight saving then charge cooling still appears to be the only sensible option.
£600 would've made it more of a decision.

Yeah I agree. May as well stick with the tried and tested chargecooler unless people see a significant improvement using the intercooler - or if they drop the price

[VXT Tim]

other than a slight weight saving then charge cooling still appears to be the only sensible option.
£600 would've made it more of a decision.

Yeah I agree. May as well stick with the tried and tested chargecooler unless people see a significant improvement using the intercooler - or if they drop the price

It's a shame really as I was keen to go down the updated I/c route.
There is always the one the boys on the continent use but even though that's been around for ages and is reasonably priced I've still never seen any before after results

[Cookies220]

Do they use fans on a dyno run to simulate air flow over the IC? If not, I can't see how the IC would perform stationary. Someone please enlighten me

[martinimike]

I drove the MMG stage 5 to Le Mans this year in 27c heat and in trafic around the curcuit, I never saw my inlet temp go above 40c. Traveling in my group was a friend running the MMG stage 4 also with the High performance MMG intercooler. The same car had just completed the 6 hour Mallory indurance event and had no issues. For me the on road performance and results speak for themselves.

Attached Files

•  hp-intercooler.jpg   278.41KB   13 downloads

[turbobob]

So then, for those of you who think the graph has been tampered with, I happen to know that it isn't. The car gives a nice smooth power delivery. It was dyno'd with an on road dyno and not a static dyno which is why it looks smooth. Liam was telling me that when looking at dyno's they looked at 4 static dyno's and the results varied by about 30bhp. But the on road dyno gave the most accurate results. I also know that Liam at MMG has spent an awful lot of time and investment on the MMG upgrades (i.e. Stage 1, 2, 3, & 5) which is why the results speak for themselves. As for the Chargecooler vs Intercooler, MMG found the best method of dyno was the on road dyno as this gives real world airflow over the intercooler which a static dyno doesn't. I can't comment on the price as I don't know what MMG charge for one.

[Stuey]

Really need to get my car un-sorned so Liam can Dyno my stage 2! Damn credit crunch.

[VXT Tim]

I'm not knockng the ability of the I/c, the price begs the question, why would you buy one though over the reliable c/c which is arguably/actually more efficient?

[turbobob]

Like I say, not sure of the MMG price. But the Courtnay Chargecooler is considerably more than what somebody else posted earlier. From Courtnays web site, the VXT220 Chargecooler "Price - £1640.00. Fitting - £765.00" ETA I thought the previous price quoted was a Courtnays CC, but its not. Not sure where you can buy a CC for £600-700 though

Edited by turbobob, 19 June 2010 - 11:47 AM.

[VXT Tim]

Tms c/c is a grand. So the £1000 quoted for this I/c earlier in the thread. Is that fact? Like tyrant said £600 would make it more of a dilema. *edit £1000-£1300 from Liam.

Edited by VXT Tim, 19 June 2010 - 12:53 PM.

[Whiteboy]

Apart from price, the charge cooler is going to give better results on a vxt. To get any sort of decent air flow over the inter cooler you would need to modify the ears, as they donot get a fantastic amount of air through them. The second issue with the i/c is that all the hot air is then dumped into an already hot engine bay. Steve

[Cookies220]

Like I say, not sure of the MMG price. But the Courtnay Chargecooler is considerably more than what somebody else posted earlier. From Courtnays web site, the VXT220 Chargecooler "Price - £1640.00. Fitting - £765.00"

ETA I thought the previous price quoted was a Courtnays CC, but its not. Not sure where you can buy a CC for £600-700 though

The CMS CC is a Pro Alloy one, which you can buy direct from Pro Alloy for £1,400. You can't deny that you get more for your money with a CC system (pre rad, header tank, pump, piping etc) but I assume the MMG IC is a simple like for like replacement so fitting should be sooo much easier / cheaper.

It will be interesting to see how the MMG IC performs over a long period. Didn't Regal go sown the larger IC route with their stage tuning?

[VXTyrant]

Here's a question. Would there be major benefits fitting both the chargecooler and the intercooler, if money were no object, or would any possible benefit be negligible?

[Crabash]

I don't really understand this, when I spoke to Liam we had a lengthy chat about not using a C/C, the main point being if you could achieve similar power it would take away a very expensive part required under current accepted methods, which is the main reason people stop at "stage 2". So if it's only going to be a few 100 quid cheaper, I can't see it being so attractive. I suppose you would save on fitting as well but still. Uprated I/C's are already available for £600 ish. I like Liam and enjoyed chatting to him, he talk's a lot of common sense, but it either has to out perform the C/C or be a lot cheaper. I mean if I could have a "stage 4" for £1200-£1500 less than the comp. (fitted) I would be prepared to accept a little less power. You have to offer something quite special IMO, Courtenay's are well respected and have been since my youth when they were doing 1.8 OHC turbo conversions, people trust them, and thats worth a lot.

Edited by Crabash, 20 June 2010 - 01:32 PM.

[Crabash]

Here's a question. Would there be major benefits fitting both the chargecooler and the intercooler, if money were no object, or would any possible benefit be negligible?

Provided there is space to do it a single item of either as long as it can do the job will be more efficient.

[VXT Tim]

Here's a question. Would there be major benefits fitting both the chargecooler and the intercooler, if money were no object, or would any possible benefit be negligible?

Provided there is space to do it a single item of either as long as it can do the job will be more efficient.

CS removes the i/c completely so no using aswell as. TMS uses STD i/c but if you were to buy the tms c/c and mmg I/c you will be looking at £2k + at least in parts alone.

[turbobob]

Here's a question. Would there be major benefits fitting both the chargecooler and the intercooler, if money were no object, or would any possible benefit be negligible?

Provided there is space to do it a single item of either as long as it can do the job will be more efficient.

CS removes the i/c completely so no using aswell as. TMS uses STD i/c but if you were to buy the tms c/c and mmg I/c you will be looking at £2k + at least in parts alone.

CS may remove the intercooler completely but they introduce an additional radiator to cool the water. I believe the overall efficiency is better with an intercooler and not a charge cooler. With a charge cooler, there is an additional inefficiency in an additional heat exchange i,e, air - metal - water and then you have to dissipate the heat via the radiator. The intercooler is therefore more efficient.

How did my original thread of an MMG stage 2 dyno get into such detailed discussion about charge coolers vs intercoolers? So what do people think about the dyno?

[Crabash]

I believe the overall efficiency is better with an intercooler and not a charge cooler. With a charge cooler, there is an additional inefficiency in an additional heat exchange i,e, air - metal - water and then you have to dissipate the heat via the radiator. The intercooler is therefore more efficient.

Correct, they are, provided you can supply them with enough air, C/C are generally for when you have limited space. Another thing that might sway me would be the weight, be interesting to know how much this I/C would save over a C/C taking the water, rad, pipes, header and pump into account.

Edited by Crabash, 20 June 2010 - 08:09 PM.

[MMG]

I don't really understand this, when I spoke to Liam we had a lengthy chat about not using a C/C, the main point being if you could achieve similar power it would take away a very expensive part required under current accepted methods, which is the main reason people stop at "stage 2".
So if it's only going to be a few 100 quid cheaper, I can't see it being so attractive. I suppose you would save on fitting as well but still. Uprated I/C's are already available for £600 ish.
I like Liam and enjoyed chatting to him, he talk's a lot of common sense, but it either has to out perform the C/C or be a lot cheaper. I mean if I could have a "stage 4" for £1200-£1500 less than the comp. (fitted) I would be prepared to accept a little less power. You have to offer something quite special IMO, Courtenay's are well respected and have been since my youth when they were doing 1.8 OHC turbo conversions, people trust them, and thats worth a lot.

How about this,
The new MMG stage 4 successfully running on 4 cars and one presently in the workshop.

Includes:
Air box modification, 3inch Turbo intake pipe(cold side of turbo),2.5 inch Top Hat, Exhaust (full 3 inch system with 100 or 200 cell cat), VXR Hybrid Turbo charger, VXR High Flow Injectors, MMG H.P. Intercooler, Stage 4 cool running plugs, MMG Stage 4 remap, all relevant pipe work and fittings.

Price £3999.00 FITTED.
Liam

[VXTyrant]

I don't really understand this, when I spoke to Liam we had a lengthy chat about not using a C/C, the main point being if you could achieve similar power it would take away a very expensive part required under current accepted methods, which is the main reason people stop at "stage 2".
So if it's only going to be a few 100 quid cheaper, I can't see it being so attractive. I suppose you would save on fitting as well but still. Uprated I/C's are already available for £600 ish.
I like Liam and enjoyed chatting to him, he talk's a lot of common sense, but it either has to out perform the C/C or be a lot cheaper. I mean if I could have a "stage 4" for £1200-£1500 less than the comp. (fitted) I would be prepared to accept a little less power. You have to offer something quite special IMO, Courtenay's are well respected and have been since my youth when they were doing 1.8 OHC turbo conversions, people trust them, and thats worth a lot.

How about this,
The new MMG stage 4 successfully running on 4 cars and one presently in the workshop.

Includes:
Air box modification, 3inch Turbo intake pipe(cold side of turbo),2.5 inch Top Hat, Exhaust (full 3 inch system with 100 or 200 cell cat), VXR Hybrid Turbo charger, VXR High Flow Injectors, MMG H.P. Intercooler, Stage 4 cool running plugs, MMG Stage 4 remap, all relevant pipe work and fittings.

Price £3999.00 FITTED.
Liam

That's a he'll of a deal considering your stage 3 is retailing on the site for £4750. A group buy offer to significantly reduce the cost of the ic may also go down well with the punters