103 replies to this topic

[turbobob]

I drove the MMG stage 5 to Le Mans this year in 27c heat and in trafic around the curcuit, I never saw my inlet temp go above 40c. Traveling in my group was a friend running the MMG stage 4 also with the High performance MMG intercooler. The same car had just completed the 6 hour Mallory indurance event and had no issues. For me the on road performance and results speak for themselves.

I have to say that if the efficencies stated are correct this looks an incredibly tempting option to the charge cooler. Even at 1k, I would imagine that it is a much easier DIY instal than a CC. Compare the price of an installed cc at over 2k, to a DIY 1k IC and its a no brainer. Plus the IC has no moving parts or electrics to fail.

1k is still pretty punchy for an IC, and a bit of a drop would make it much even more tempting.

Having said that stage 2 is the end of my engine mods, due to the diminished returns against cost, this may push further power hikes back onto the agenda for my VX.

John

Having been looking into intercoolers and chargecoolers lately (as can probably be seen with my posts on the intercooler vs chargecooler thread) I believe you are correct. Not only is the intercooler more than capable, I think its probably the better option. That coupled with the overall package (i.e. price and product) you get with the MMG Stage 3 and 4 I think its almost a no brainer.

[Zoobeef]

I drove the MMG stage 5 to Le Mans this year in 27c heat and in trafic around the curcuit, I never saw my inlet temp go above 40c. Traveling in my group was a friend running the MMG stage 4 also with the High performance MMG intercooler. The same car had just completed the 6 hour Mallory indurance event and had no issues. For me the on road performance and results speak for themselves.

I have to say that if the efficencies stated are correct this looks an incredibly tempting option to the charge cooler. Even at 1k, I would imagine that it is a much easier DIY instal than a CC. Compare the price of an installed cc at over 2k, to a DIY 1k IC and its a no brainer. Plus the IC has no moving parts or electrics to fail.

1k is still pretty punchy for an IC, and a bit of a drop would make it much even more tempting.

Having said that stage 2 is the end of my engine mods, due to the diminished returns against cost, this may push further power hikes back onto the agenda for my VX.

John

Having been looking into intercoolers and chargecoolers lately (as can probably be seen with my posts on the intercooler vs chargecooler thread) I believe you are correct. Not only is the intercooler more than capable, I think its probably the better option. That coupled with the overall package (i.e. price and product) you get with the MMG Stage 3 and 4 I think its almost a no brainer.

Not when you get a cc for the same price and diy fit

[turbobob]

I drove the MMG stage 5 to Le Mans this year in 27c heat and in trafic around the curcuit, I never saw my inlet temp go above 40c. Traveling in my group was a friend running the MMG stage 4 also with the High performance MMG intercooler. The same car had just completed the 6 hour Mallory indurance event and had no issues. For me the on road performance and results speak for themselves.

I have to say that if the efficencies stated are correct this looks an incredibly tempting option to the charge cooler. Even at 1k, I would imagine that it is a much easier DIY instal than a CC. Compare the price of an installed cc at over 2k, to a DIY 1k IC and its a no brainer. Plus the IC has no moving parts or electrics to fail.

1k is still pretty punchy for an IC, and a bit of a drop would make it much even more tempting.

Having said that stage 2 is the end of my engine mods, due to the diminished returns against cost, this may push further power hikes back onto the agenda for my VX.

John

Having been looking into intercoolers and chargecoolers lately (as can probably be seen with my posts on the intercooler vs chargecooler thread) I believe you are correct. Not only is the intercooler more than capable, I think its probably the better option. That coupled with the overall package (i.e. price and product) you get with the MMG Stage 3 and 4 I think its almost a no brainer.

Not when you get a cc for the same price and diy fit

IC diy fit much easier. IC vs CC see the other thread. Overall package i.e. stage 4 vs Courtnay / TMS? Yep definitely MMG

[Zoobeef]

Yeah read the other thread, might be a bit easier but its all easy for me haha. Id like to see side by side 'stage 4' graphs and intercooler/engine bay temp during prolonged thrashings

[turbobob]

You may be surprised. Prolonged thrashings may cause the CC more of a problem than the IC. The IC will cool fairly quickly when you come of the throttle for cornering, whereas the CC won't be able to dissipate the heat that quickly (as there is water rear / middle / front. Needs more time to cycle the water all the way round the system.

[Whiteboy]

You may be surprised. Prolonged thrashings may cause the CC more of a problem than the IC. The IC will cool fairly quickly when you come of the throttle for cornering, whereas the CC won't be able to dissipate the heat that quickly (as there is water rear / middle / front. Needs more time to cycle the water all the way round the system.

Dude is that why we have air cooled engines, as water only cools when we lift off.

[turbobob]

You may be surprised. Prolonged thrashings may cause the CC more of a problem than the IC. The IC will cool fairly quickly when you come of the throttle for cornering, whereas the CC won't be able to dissipate the heat that quickly (as there is water rear / middle / front. Needs more time to cycle the water all the way round the system.

Dude is that why we have air cooled engines, as water only cools when we lift off.

What? How long does it take for the heated water to cycle round the entire system? I.e. the water in the CC, the water in the pipes, the water in the pump and the water in the rad?

[Whiteboy]

You may be surprised. Prolonged thrashings may cause the CC more of a problem than the IC. The IC will cool fairly quickly when you come of the throttle for cornering, whereas the CC won't be able to dissipate the heat that quickly (as there is water rear / middle / front. Needs more time to cycle the water all the way round the system.

Dude is that why we have air cooled engines, as water only cools when we lift off.

What? How long does it take for the heated water to cycle round the entire system? I.e. the water in the CC, the water in the pipes, the water in the pump and the water in the rad?

So why have we got water cooled cars then?

[Vespa]

Surely the point with the cc is that the water is constantly cycled and therefore u do not have to 'wait' for the same bit of water to be cooled and come back around. Because it is continually pumped and cooled the temps never rise that much. Well that's how I understand it anyway?

[turbobob]

My point is when the system is heat soaked you have to wait longer for sufficiently cooled water to get back into the CC.

[Whiteboy]

You may be surprised. Prolonged thrashings may cause the CC more of a problem than the IC. The IC will cool fairly quickly when you come of the throttle for cornering, whereas the CC won't be able to dissipate the heat that quickly (as there is water rear / middle / front. Needs more time to cycle the water all the way round the system.

The intercooler will heat soak quicker, just look at the stage 2 cars after one gear it starts to back the boost off. Why don't you put your money where your mouth is and get this set up and then we will have a vx dyno day.

[turbobob]

I see you avoided my question If I had the money I probably would. And rolling road dyno vs on road dyno? Well which is the real world?

[Winstar]

Lets get this clear there 2 reasons why a system heat soaks: The IC or cold air rad on a CC are 1 Not 'big' enough, as in not capable of rejecting the heat. and/or 2 Does not get enough cold air to remove the heat from it. Both of which are hard to achive in a midengined car. For an IC then there is very ittle thermal inerta so the system has to be sized to pretty much be able deal with the max heat rejection conditions. A CC system has alot of inertia so can be sized smaller so it can recover at times in the duty cycle when your not at full power. The only issue is if it's not big enought to cope with heavy use like prolonged track use. So far the only car to manage to do this with the Proalloy CC is the 400+bhp hofmann europa which was partly down to oil temperature.

Edited by Winstar, 24 June 2010 - 08:51 PM.

[rob999]

Gentlemen, can't we all just get along!!

[Duncan VXR]

Well I have seen them all on vx's - pro alloy cc, tms cc, larger MMG I/C and even the old pace cc IMO (which does not mean much ) TMS CC - as std not upto the job and still has the restriction in flow of the oe I/C - I have modded one and this made a big improvement but still was not as good as the pro alloy CC PA CC does what it states - had some issues with split cores and after I broke a few there was a new design to address it - problem with both CC is time / cost to fit unless you do it yourself - I tend to charge £300 all in but there is a lot of work to do - but a lot more at garages MMG I/C seen it through its development stages and was certainly done correctly and Liam spent a lot of his own cash getting it right testing different cores etc - seen during race setup and results so far seem to be on par with the PA CC temps Be interesting to see them back to back testing but as discussed there are pro's and con's of both setups (weight, heat soak, cost to install etc etc) From what I have seen so far it is another does what it says on the tin - keep up the good work Liam As I have suggested to Liam it may be worth looking at the vx sprint type ears which stick out further for more air into the ear DG

[iVXT]

Ok guys sorry to change the thread back to the original mmg stage 2 stuff... I'm impressed with the power graph posted on the first page. Is the owner on this site & would be interested in the verdict on it? Also not sure I can justify the stage 2 this soon after buying my vxt & have seen stuff on mmg stage 1 with great power gains but not as much torque. Does the car sound much different with the stage 1 precat removal & airbox mods? I must admit a bit sad at lack of exhaust note. What I'm getting at (bear with me) is does the extra £1200 or so quid for the exhaust system which looks an impressive bit of kit really make a huge difference to final result & or sound of car compared to the stage 1. I guess I'd really like stage 2 but would be grateful of your opinions as £'s not growing on my tree atm.

[Zoobeef]

If you just remove your precat and then get a remap you will see similar results as the stage 2 at a fraction of the cost. Not quite as high but alot cheaper

[Nev]

Just to go off thread even further... if you are genuinely concerned about temps in general, don't forget that adding a serious oil cooler in the car can help keep all temps down. I know this doesn't relate directly to the charge temps as such, but people often forget that an engine has 3 ways of cooling itself, one of which is the oil itself. People who drive their cars hard for sustained periods (ie > 1+ min at 5000 revs+) should consider this IMHO.

[siztenboots]

Just to go off thread even further... if you are genuinely concerned about temps in general, don't forget that adding a serious oil cooler in the car can help keep all temps down. I know this doesn't relate directly to the charge temps as such, but people often forget that an engine has 3 ways of cooling itself, one of which is the oil itself. People who drive their cars hard for sustained periods (ie > 1+ min at 5000 revs+) should consider this IMHO.

some shared thoughts on the air/oil cooler would be a good thread to start. Whether or not to keep the OE water/oil unit by the intake would need to be looked at.

[turbobob]

Ok guys sorry to change the thread back to the original mmg stage 2 stuff...

I'm impressed with the power graph posted on the first page. Is the owner on this site & would be interested in the verdict on it?

Also not sure I can justify the stage 2 this soon after buying my vxt & have seen stuff on mmg stage 1 with great power gains but not as much torque. Does the car sound much different with the stage 1 precat removal & airbox mods? I must admit a bit sad at lack of exhaust note.

What I'm getting at (bear with me) is does the extra £1200 or so quid for the exhaust system which looks an impressive bit of kit really make a huge difference to final result & or sound of car compared to the stage 1.

I guess I'd really like stage 2 but would be grateful of your opinions as £'s not growing on my tree atm.

Its probably worth a call to Liam at MMG to discuss your budget vs best options to to you. He's a really decent guy and isn't going to rip you off by telling you need x, y & z.

But the pre cat replacement, airbox mods and Milltek I have sound MUCH better than the standard set up