153 replies to this topic

[coldel]

Nigel farage just put Boris back in number 10...

 

This. A genius at hoodwinking the public into thinking 'he is doing something' but an utter shambles at rallying a party, having a solid view on policy or being in anyway capable of dealing with international politics (cite failed previous roles). Yet here we are, one of the most self-serving people in politics of the last 20 years being elected by default.

 

Appreciate the Monday , always a good out once its done, but people in this country are so obsessed with Brexit they ignore the other things that will be equally damaging to them right now.

 

The economy is plummeting, we are formally not in recession, but in reality we are if you really look at the numbers released today. The WA will not fix this. Nothing suddenly gets better when we finally decide on how we leave. The three years since the vote has left business with such under-investment much worse is yet to come before anything more positive happens, so many large corporations are teetering on the edge with tens, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs hanging by similar threads.

[C8RKH]

 

Nigel farage just put Boris back in number 10...

 

This. A genius at hoodwinking the public into thinking 'he is doing something' but an utter shambles at rallying a party, having a solid view on policy or being in anyway capable of dealing with international politics (cite failed previous roles). Yet here we are, one of the most self-serving people in politics of the last 20 years being elected by default.

 

Appreciate the Monday , always a good out once its done, but people in this country are so obsessed with Brexit they ignore the other things that will be equally damaging to them right now.

 

The economy is plummeting, we are formally not in recession, but in reality we are if you really look at the numbers released today. The WA will not fix this. Nothing suddenly gets better when we finally decide on how we leave. The three years since the vote has left business with such under-investment much worse is yet to come before anything more positive happens, so many large corporations are teetering on the edge with tens, if not hundreds of thousands of jobs hanging by similar threads.

 

And yet so many are making record profits. Graduate recruitment is at an all time high in general. Overseas investment has not faltered in % terms UK v EU. Large corporations in the UK generally earn 50% or more of their revenues from overseas, from a falling £pound is actually a godsend to them. There is a reason the FTSE 100 goes up when the £pound falls, and that is that generally the profits at these large UK based organisations goes up in a direct correlation to the falling pound.

 

Many of the corporations that are teetering on the edge are doing so because to be honest, they have had p*ss poor CEO's, CFO's who are clueless just looking at spreadsheets and making short term decisions based on a number with no real understanding of the business, etc.  It's easy to blame the current crisis (e.g. Brexit), after all, what CEO, CFO or Board would actually take accountability themselves these days for the state of the business that is as a direct result of their actions?

 

I may be from the North. Winter may be coming and I know nothing. But I know enough to not just swallow the BS coming out of the BBC and the Daily Communist rags.

 

 

[jonnyboy]

Agree totally. Brexit is a long way from over even with this deal 3 to 5 years probably.

Lots of other stuff going on. What will we do with all the reporters and media people that have made a living from it? Maybe they can go fruit picking after Brexit!

[jonnyboy]

One new term I heard on the wireless is quite apt actually. I suspect a lot of us posting here actually have quite similar outlooks.

I'm a slightly left of centre type and I suspect you Tory people are probably just right of centre.

But...we are politically homeless. I can't vote for Corbyn because I'm blessed with a brain. Im sure many don't like Boris and worry about voting Tory and ending up with Mogg or someone as PM. Brexit has made the country too divided.

For example if you are a Tory remainer. Where would you vote?

[coldel]

Brexit has caused a lot of issues, it caused sudden Sterling devaluation and no recovery. In very simple terms the problem is that we import more than we export, so sure the financial gains from us being a cheap country to buy from shows some gains but fundamentally they undermine our whole economy. This is a direct and tangible link, only staunch leavers will keep waving it away, this is head in the sand stuff - and sure it might all be ok in ten years time but it is a very current and very applicable issue which is not being addressed at all in the election run up as I say, with people obsessed with Brexit and WA. Which was my point.

 

The graduate thing is good news, but it's not being driven by there being lots of successful professional services recruiting more grads, a high percentage of grads are taking on jobs far below their skills set, zero contract hours work is proliferating the market, along with many other actions. Sure there are certain services doing well, but this is not indicative of the country as a whole.

 

As for reading BS, sure there will always be the headlines about CEO goes on holiday whilst company fails. I bet 1 in 10 of those stories are true, whilst the other 9 completely twist and manipulate to make a headline, that it seems enough people fall for. I would love to find a CFO right now who can make financially secure decisions given the current economic uncertainty. Easy to blame them post failure though...

 

 

[C8RKH]

Brexit has caused a lot of issues, it caused sudden Sterling devaluation and no recovery. In very simple terms the problem is that we import more than we export, so sure the financial gains from us being a cheap country to buy from shows some gains but fundamentally they undermine our whole economy. This is a direct and tangible link, only staunch leavers will keep waving it away, this is head in the sand stuff - and sure it might all be ok in ten years time but it is a very current and very applicable issue which is not being addressed at all in the election run up as I say, with people obsessed with Brexit and WA. Which was my point.

 

The graduate thing is good news, but it's not being driven by there being lots of successful professional services recruiting more grads, a high percentage of grads are taking on jobs far below their skills set, zero contract hours work is proliferating the market, along with many other actions. Sure there are certain services doing well, but this is not indicative of the country as a whole.

 

As for reading BS, sure there will always be the headlines about CEO goes on holiday whilst company fails. I bet 1 in 10 of those stories are true, whilst the other 9 completely twist and manipulate to make a headline, that it seems enough people fall for. I would love to find a CFO right now who can make financially secure decisions given the current economic uncertainty. Easy to blame them post failure though...

There are plenty of well documented company failures where a direct link has been found between the performance of the CFO and their team has resulted in company failure. Indeed, some of them are in jail!  All I am saying is that there needs to be a balance between blaming external influences and internal influencers and that in my very humble opinion the latter is used less than the former. Certainly in my 35 years in industry I have seen good, well run and financially stable companies being undermined by short term thinking from new CEO and CFO's who seem to be more concerned about their own image and next job, than they are with good stewardship.

 

It's hard for us to be an exporting company when for a whole variety of reasons our manufacturing sector has been dwindling whilst our services sector has been growing. Indeed, my whole point re the large corporates is that in many cases the design, innovation, experimentation and development is all done in the UK, and the physical manufacturing is done overseas for cost reasons. This does however create a reverse value in that the revenue earned overseas is worth more when the pound fails, so, when we invest those pounds back into UK innovation and design then we get a bigger return for our money.

 

I think we both agree @coldel that it is a complex environment, where we disagree is that it is always seems to be someone elses fault when companies go bust, never the fault of the management team. 

 

If you think it is bad now, you better go to Aldi and stock up on tinned food and jump into your old nuclear bunker because if Comrade Corbyn gets in you will see a mass exodus of company HQ's and middle/upper middle class people who run to the hills (or is that overseas) to protect their hard worked for wealth from being handed over to lazy feckers who can't be arsed to work for a better future for themselves.

[techieboy]

a high percentage of grads are taking on jobs far below their skills set

Or they're taking jobs that are much more inline with their actual skill set after having abandoned dreams of careers in meedja or art gallery curation. Of the circa 15 hires I've made in the last few years, the two standout recruits had both given themselves a reality check and abandoned their chosen degrees in their first and second years after realising that even with a first, there was only likely to be a one in ten thousand chance they'd actually get into their chosen professions.

Irrespective of whether degrees have become easier or harder to achieve, Blair's insistence that everyone should be able to have one (no matter the subject) has undeniably devalued them and just raised the employment entry bar further. Still it always looks good in the OECD league tables and the like.

[C8RKH]

That ^^^^^^ is spot on @techieboy.  Grads have huge expectations these days - many not willing to go for jobs offering less than a £25k starting salary and since many of them might have an academic qualification or two, a large number of them have zero work experience. Zero emotional intelligence. No idea what work is all about, etc. A good number of them are arrogant twits too!

 

I've given up on hiring the majority of grads. I tend to go more for school leavers at 18, with good grades, a strong work ethic and a desire to learn and get on. They are cheaper, but that is not my point in hiring them. They actually perform better. Give better value. Are likely to stay around longer. And don't expect to be the CEO after 18 months in role.

 

I guess that grads would say that Brexit has devalued their degrees which is why the Apprentices are stealing their jobs! 

 

 

[coldel]

I think its unfair to label grads in a stereotype, I know lazy school leavers, lazy grads and lazy 30 somethings who still live off their parents income. I go for the best people, I don't start with a preconception.

 

There has been an analysis on grad recruitment and it is true they are starting to align their degrees with the job market, starting salaries I think from memory are averaging around £23k so well in line with what they might be expecting - clearly industry dependent on what the actual industry average is. It has been shown though that a significant number are taking jobs like working on shop floor, till work, warehouse work when they have a degree in Business or the like, thats the big issue.

 

We are also talking about record grad employment being something like 75% instead of 71% it was 5 years ago, this isn't like we are making significant actual gains here. Ultimately, back to the point, where I was talking about relevant politics which are being ignored, a country where its growth is consistently under target and treading water above a recession is not a healthy economy, no matter if its 75% or 71% of grads being employed. As soon as our economy sees a recession formally recognised the markets panic, we have a depreciating currency, we are not in a good place, yet all our MPs want you to focus on is the 2016 referendum result. 

[sford]

 

a high percentage of grads are taking on jobs far below their skills set

Or they're taking jobs that are much more inline with their actual skill set after having abandoned dreams of careers in meedja or art gallery curation. Of the circa 15 hires I've made in the last few years, the two standout recruits had both given themselves a reality check and abandoned their chosen degrees in their first and second years after realising that even with a first, there was only likely to be a one in ten thousand chance they'd actually get into their chosen professions.

Irrespective of whether degrees have become easier or harder to achieve, Blair's insistence that everyone should be able to have one (no matter the subject) has undeniably devalued them and just raised the employment entry bar further. Still it always looks good in the OECD league tables and the like.

 

 

For the past 5-6 years I've been looking after grads in technical roles and a lot have been expecting to earn good money (I'd say roughly 30k) straight off the bat. Not saying they aren't worth it but a lot of the degrees don't seem to have enabled them understand the roles and carry out the work correctly. Some even don't know the basics or how to apply them so I don't know what they're being taught. This was working with forensic science and maths grads. I suppose uni was to teach them the base understanding behind the fields that they are to work in but there is less and less ability to apply that at a practical level. 

 

Genuine industry experience of the degree they are studying through a placement year, adding one more year on to a 3 year degree would enable a greater ability. If it were after the first two years it would also allow them experience of the actual role, enabling them to change degrees if it isn't what they thought it might be. I know some degrees already do this and it seems to work well from my experiences. 

[sford]

It has been shown though that a significant number are taking jobs like working on shop floor, till work, warehouse work when they have a degree in Business or the like, thats the big issue.

 

But what was the ultimate goal of a business degree. Working in retail, becoming shop manager, becoming area manager etc is how I started (I deferred to digital forensics and then to information security) but had managed that by the time I was mid thirties. I know someone (he is 60 plus so may not be relevant to how things work now) but started in the office as an office clerk and has ended up being European Director for Sales. You can't just walk into the top roles at a big business without having some experience behind you. The bigger the role the more experience. 

[coldel]

 

It has been shown though that a significant number are taking jobs like working on shop floor, till work, warehouse work when they have a degree in Business or the like, thats the big issue.

 

But what was the ultimate goal of a business degree. Working in retail, becoming shop manager, becoming area manager etc is how I started (I deferred to digital forensics and then to information security) but had managed that by the time I was mid thirties. I know someone (he is 60 plus so may not be relevant to how things work now) but started in the office as an office clerk and has ended up being European Director for Sales. You can't just walk into the top roles at a big business without having some experience behind you. The bigger the role the more experience. 

 

 

I never mentioned walking in to top roles? Not sure where you got that from? I am talking about grads not achieving entry level roles in their chosen profession but instead ending up working on the till in Tesco. I picked out 'Business degree' for context and example but it could have been engineering, IT, finance, statistics, coding anything really and they are working on the shop floor at Tesco and counted as a grad 'employed' - is working on the till in Tesco conducive to you getting a job as an infrastructure engineer or a coder? 

 

There are a number of routes the majority of senior people take into their role, a few here and there did start on the shop floor but didn't sit in uni for 3-5 years first and it's a dying route into these senior positions.

[coldel]

 

 

a high percentage of grads are taking on jobs far below their skills set

Or they're taking jobs that are much more inline with their actual skill set after having abandoned dreams of careers in meedja or art gallery curation. Of the circa 15 hires I've made in the last few years, the two standout recruits had both given themselves a reality check and abandoned their chosen degrees in their first and second years after realising that even with a first, there was only likely to be a one in ten thousand chance they'd actually get into their chosen professions.

Irrespective of whether degrees have become easier or harder to achieve, Blair's insistence that everyone should be able to have one (no matter the subject) has undeniably devalued them and just raised the employment entry bar further. Still it always looks good in the OECD league tables and the like.

 

 

For the past 5-6 years I've been looking after grads in technical roles and a lot have been expecting to earn good money (I'd say roughly 30k) straight off the bat. Not saying they aren't worth it but a lot of the degrees don't seem to have enabled them understand the roles and carry out the work correctly. Some even don't know the basics or how to apply them so I don't know what they're being taught. This was working with forensic science and maths grads. I suppose uni was to teach them the base understanding behind the fields that they are to work in but there is less and less ability to apply that at a practical level. 

 

Genuine industry experience of the degree they are studying through a placement year, adding one more year on to a 3 year degree would enable a greater ability. If it were after the first two years it would also allow them experience of the actual role, enabling them to change degrees if it isn't what they thought it might be. I know some degrees already do this and it seems to work well from my experiences. 

 

 

I took a year out from my degree to work back in 1996, so its been around for some time, and it was one of the best things I did. I got hired in my first job off the back of it as everyone else had a degree like me, but not the experience, and hiring companies have to differentiate somehow. 

[Jetpilot]

     For example if you are a Tory remainer. Where would you vote?

 

Interesting and asked a friend this very question, one of just a handful of people i know who voted remain. A brief outline, just outside the top 50 start ups list, 40 million plus turnover and a european distribution company, of course he voted remain for very good reason. He said he couldnt possibly vote anything but Tory as in essence it will be least pain financially even with Brexit being done. 

 

That ^^^^^^ is spot on @techieboy.  Grads have huge expectations these days - many not willing to go for jobs offering less than a £25k starting salary and since many of them might have an academic qualification or two, a large number of them have zero work experience. Zero emotional intelligence. No idea what work is all about, etc. A good number of them are arrogant twits too!

 

My 20 yr old niece to a tee, claimed she would be earning more money than me as soon as she leaves Uni. The frustration to me is, who on this earth has brainwashed her enough to believe that, they are the ones that should be held to account, i am pretty sure its not her parents, they are both level headed, so it can only be the teachers or social media.

[sford]

 

 

stuff

 

stuff

 

I never mentioned walking in to top roles? Not sure where you got that from? I am talking about grads not achieving entry level roles in their chosen profession but instead ending up working on the till in Tesco. I picked out 'Business degree' for context and example but it could have been engineering, IT, finance, statistics, coding anything really and they are working on the shop floor at Tesco and counted as a grad 'employed' - is working on the till in Tesco conducive to you getting a job as an infrastructure engineer or a coder? 

 

There are a number of routes the majority of senior people take into their role, a few here and there did start on the shop floor but didn't sit in uni for 3-5 years first and it's a dying route into these senior positions.

 

 

I took the examples you gave of business degree and working in retail presuming that they were related. Of course if someone works in coding they should be looking for roles in coding. Again relating to personal experience, there are lots of coding roles around where I live (Worcestershire) in Stratford, Birmingham, Leamington etc. You can code from home. But it depends what the roles are these people are applying for. Same as engineering, IT or any other skilled role. If you aren't willing to relocate for the role and the role doesn't exist where you are then you perhaps have studied the wrong thing. Bit like studying the ocean from the midlands. Can't be many people living in Warwickshire that are oceanographers. You'd move to the coast. 

 

Looking at it from a generic point of view, if I were at uni studying something I would be looking with 12-18 months to go on the degree at the next step. I'd have a good idea of my expected result and I'd be looking at getting my name out and about prior to finishing, possibly lining up for a grad program at a big business. At least having some idea where I want to be or who I wanted to work for. Then I do tend to be a bit into the planning aspect of things. I like to have something to work towards. 

 

As was said before, the 'everyone needs a degree' has led to a dilution of the value of the degree. 

 

This thread has swerved off target a bit though. As was said before, the parties seem to have gone further from the centre. Blair and the champagne socialists were no more labour than the rest of the oxbridge educated conservatives of the time. Maybe politics shouldn't be a career. Maybe the role of politician should be something people choose to do alongside a career, to support the community/country and for the greater good. Not for a big pay check and expenses. 

Edited by sford, 11 November 2019 - 05:20 PM.

[Jetpilot]

Nigel farage just put Boris back in number 10...

 

Even as a leave and Tory voter i wish the news today hadnt been the case as if Boris does get a majority it had been on a level playing field, it will only be said it was a hollow victory by all the other parties. Whilst allegedly it was not a "pact" made by Boris, if the lib dems/plaid/greens are up to it, why not everyone else i guess.

[jonnyboy]

 

This thread has swerved off target a bit though. As was said before, the parties seem to have gone further from the centre. Blair and the champagne socialists were no more labour than the rest of the oxbridge educated conservatives of the time. Maybe politics shouldn't be a career. Maybe the role of politician should be something people choose to do alongside a career, to support the community/country and for the greater good. Not for a big pay check and expenses. 

 

 

I think the majority of MPs are in it for the right reasons. The salary they get isn't all that crazy really especially when you consider the hours/been away from home/possible threats to yourself and your family etc I think in this country there will be plenty of people earning £76k a lot easier than this route. Most MPS arent the top job chasing ego maniac types most are just there to serve their constituents without any desire for "career" progression. After all there are 600 odd of them and probably two dozen that we ever hear about. I honestly think that the majority of MPs are probably pretty decent and if it was about money they can and do earn more doing something easier.  

 

Structural issues we have especially with regards Brexit is the stupid tribal party political system. On things like abortion the house had a free vote and I simply can't understand why all of the Brexit votes couldn't have been free. It would have removed all the political manoeuvring and got things done much quicker. Brexit has been used by all sides as a political football and as a conduit to getting to power. Boris used it, Corbyn has done nothing but use it and balls to the good of the country in prolonging the uncertainty that's killing the country the longer it goes on.  It's this aspect of Brexit that I think has caused severe damage to the political class many MPs especially Labour ones having voted against their local constituency which I find astonishing. 

[Ivor]

This thread has swerved off target a bit though. As was said before, the parties seem to have gone further from the centre. Blair and the champagne socialists were no more labour than the rest of the oxbridge educated conservatives of the time. Maybe politics shouldn't be a career. Maybe the role of politician should be something people choose to do alongside a career, to support the community/country and for the greater good. Not for a big pay check and expenses.

I think the majority of MPs are in it for the right reasons. The salary they get isn't all that crazy really especially when you consider the hours/been away from home/possible threats to yourself and your family etc I think in this country there will be plenty of people earning £76k a lot easier than this route. Most MPS arent the top job chasing ego maniac types most are just there to serve their constituents without any desire for "career" progression. After all there are 600 odd of them and probably two dozen that we ever hear about. I honestly think that the majority of MPs are probably pretty decent and if it was about money they can and do earn more doing something easier.

Structural issues we have especially with regards Brexit is the stupid tribal party political system. On things like abortion the house had a free vote and I simply can't understand why all of the Brexit votes couldn't have been free. It would have removed all the political manoeuvring and got things done much quicker. Brexit has been used by all sides as a political football and as a conduit to getting to power. Boris used it, Corbyn has done nothing but use it and balls to the good of the country in prolonging the uncertainty that's killing the country the longer it goes on. It's this aspect of Brexit that I think has caused severe damage to the political class many MPs especially Labour ones having voted against their local constituency which I find astonishing.

Well said

Edited by Ivor, 12 November 2019 - 06:49 AM.

[coldel]

I would also agree, its a shame the good ones don't end up running the country. Or, it could be said that the job of PM itself requires an MP to in effect lie, back track, change policy etc. it's impossible to do the job otherwise 

 

Interesting that Bercow has laid into Cameron yesterday - there are certainly a few 'born to rule' MPs out there (would easily drop Boris and JRM into that category). 

 

If no one has watched it yet, I would really recommend watching The Thick of It - apparently a fair bit of it is true to life in terms of the bullying, the back stabbing and control that certain individuals have behind the scenes of politics. 

[C8RKH]

 

The salary they get isn't all that crazy really especially when you consider the hours/been away from home/possible threats to yourself and your family etc I think in this country there will be plenty of people earning £76k a lot easier than this route. Most MPS arent the top job chasing ego maniac types most are just there to serve their constituents without any desire for "career" progression. 

 

 

It's not just the salary Jon, they get a huge package that includes so much more for setting up and running an office, for employing staff (many use their wife/kids), for a property in London (many use this to fund buying a second property in the capital which they can sell when they leave), lavish expense bills etc etc.  A bit naive to think they only get £76k a year to be honest.

 

I agree with you that Brexit was too important an issue to NOT be put to "free" votes without party whips being involved. However, where I disagree maybe is that the public were asked to vote. They turned out in record numbers and they gave their decision. The role of Parliament and the MP's should, at that point, regarding the Brexit issue, have centred on delivering the will of the people and securing the best possible Exit for the UK whilst retaining a positive and productive forward looking relationship with the EU and our friends there. Collectively they failed and should be ashamed of themselves and their behaviour.

 

Unfortunately, right away, the rules of the playground took over. Any common good objective was derailed and quite frankly, our elected representatives, egged on by a speaker who I personally believe should be jailed for miss conduct in a public office given his biased behaviour.

 

I also disagree that by inference all PM's are bad. That is not and has not been the case. It is just that right now we have a toxic political environment in the UK and as much as Bojo and the Tories are to blame, the real divisive and repulsive character in all of this is Corbyn who again has shown a ruthless and selfish persona of a person with one single objective and that is that HE becomes PM.  You think BOJO was ruthless, look again at Corbyn, he is writing the book on it with his Cronies MacDonald and Momentum. A could never vote Labour again whilst these people hold the power in the party.

Edited by C8RKH, 12 November 2019 - 10:40 AM.