613 replies to this topic

[FLD]

some interesting points there.  I can imagine an employer who is unreasonable being somewhat of a challenge.  I am very lucky in that department.  For me this is the key to it all.  Employers need to be flexible but workers also need to not take the pi55.  I've heard of people claiming to have 'self-furloughed'.  This has to be a two way thing.

[coldel]

some interesting points there.  I can imagine an employer who is unreasonable being somewhat of a challenge.  I am very lucky in that department.  For me this is the key to it all.  Employers need to be flexible but workers also need to not take the pi55.  I've heard of people claiming to have 'self-furloughed'.  This has to be a two way thing.

 

Totally. Its unknown territory with complications which haven't been present before in the labour market. A good friend of mine was furloughed and then told the next day to start working again or it might hinder his promotion prospects. This is at a company based in Victoria in London he lives out in Middlesex so with the issues of travel, his other half a key worker and his child at home I can't imagine the pressure that put him under. And yes imagine that some people are also taking the pi55 and enjoying an extended holiday in the sunshine and how employers are meant to handle that. 

[coldel]

How's it looking out there for everyone? I noticed a substantial rise in road traffic, at least double or triple the amount usually around under lock-down. Quite a lot of people looking like they were off to work this morning, although the pavements are clear again now. Be interesting to see what the feedback is on the public transport issues in major cities as clearly people are not all wearing masks and cannot keep a distance. My main concerns based on what I have seen today is that we are heading for a second spike, we have no track and trace capability and are still well below the testing levels we need to be at yet have to all intents and purposes removed the lock-down for all but the most vulnerable. 

[Zoobeef]

all intents and purposes removed the lock-down for all but the most vulnerable. 

 

Which is what we should have done.

Instead we locked up the least vulnerable (I.e no real danger at all) and then sent corona directly into the care homes.

[coldel]

There will need to be an inquiry into the handling of the pandemic post event, to record lessons learned as we cannot have the same mistakes repeated should we face this situation again. But for now its a case of navigating our way out of where we have ended up, I will be signing up to the app that tracks and traces. I get there are implications on my personal privacy but for the sake of my health and anyoneI might have been in close contact with I am willing to give that up for now. The greater good and all that. 

[Rosssco]

How's it looking out there for everyone? I noticed a substantial rise in road traffic, at least double or triple the amount usually around under lock-down. Quite a lot of people looking like they were off to work this morning, although the pavements are clear again now. Be interesting to see what the feedback is on the public transport issues in major cities as clearly people are not all wearing masks and cannot keep a distance. My main concerns based on what I have seen today is that we are heading for a second spike, we have no track and trace capability and are still well below the testing levels we need to be at yet have to all intents and purposes removed the lock-down for all but the most vulnerable.

 
Not noticed a big difference up here (Scotland), but we're still (technically) in 'Stay Home' mode. Although I predict that the relaxation in restrictions in England will inspire others to go our more etc. and its only a matter of time, perhaps a couple of weeks at most before we all follow suit.

 

Whether its intentional or not, a 'second spike' (although it probably won't be a 'spike', more of a second gentle rise if anything) would be preferable before the Autumn / Winter starts.

[C8RKH]

some interesting points there.  I can imagine an employer who is unreasonable being somewhat of a challenge.  I am very lucky in that department.  For me this is the key to it all.  Employers need to be flexible but workers also need to not take the pi55.  I've heard of people claiming to have 'self-furloughed'.  This has to be a two way thing.

 

You can't self furlough as far as I know if you are employed. The application for the furlough is made by the employer is it not and you need to sign a contract variation etc?

 

If one of my team "self furloughed" they would be fooking off permanently as I would not have them back and would have sacked them for breach of contract. Maybe I am just a twat.

[C8RKH]

 

Itll get interesting when a company tells someone to come to work and they say they can't because of child care. They'll probably try harder to find some child care when the company says they can have it as unpaid holiday then.

 

Sturgeon will try as hard as she can to rock the boat hence announcing before boris and effectively trying to force his hand. I assume he's spoke with both devolved governments but they've decided on their own plans.

In Boris's speech he mentioned all the nations and him saying Scotland first on the list won't have been by accident. It's basically saying to the scottish people he's considering them but its their FM thats keeping the restrictions.

 

Yep the whole children thing is going to be difficult, you can see some serious legal issues coming about if a person is told they aren't being paid because they are not coming into work because the schools are closed. 

 

 

Interesting, would be keen to see someones work contract that says if they can't get childcare they don't need to come into work!  Good luck getting sympathy through the courts on that too!  It'll be use up your holidays then unpaid leave and we'll keep your job open for you but not pay you, unless of course they are furloughed. Companies have a duty of care yes, but they are charities and children with kids just need to find a way (in other words, it's not a case of "I've got kids so I can't work and tough" - it's both parties being sensible and reasonable to get a good outcome for both. All one way, whether to the employer or the employee, is wrong).

[coldel]

It is about being sensible you are right, unfortunately the country isn't made up of enough sensible people (cite toilet rolls and dried pasta). If an employee cannot get to work because say they are a single parent they need to have a sensible conversation with the employer. The right approach is to be flexible and see the benefits of that paid back indirectly by the employees effort - peoples value to business multiplies when a business generates loyalty with its employee. Obvious approach is 'time off for dependents' which is usually short term unpaid leave but under the circumstances can be extended (was hoping the gvt would clarify this as its going to be a thing now for millions of people but there is no clarity on it) and there should be no expectation the employee either makes up the time or should they find this leads to a dismissal (which would land an employer in court and paying substantial damages) and as Boris said 'if people cannot get into work because of childcare, they must be protected, and employers must be reasonable' which is in effect a directive that any dismissal due to childcare would be unfair. It is a minefield though and unfortunately its not easy for many employers or employees of SME's to know what their rights are or what they are meant to do right now.

 

Having been both, a non-parent and now a parent - I find that parents work harder than anyone can imagine to get to work and make everything happen. I get up at 5:45am everyday, do exercise, sort out breakfast for my son, get him dressed, off to breakfast club before school, then get into work for 8:30am in central London and never mention it but have to put up with non-parents moaning about having been delayed 10 minutes on the train - FFS, really, you haven't got a clue lol!

Edited by coldel, 13 May 2020 - 05:52 PM.

[C8RKH]

 

 

Having been both, a non-parent and now a parent - I find that parents work harder than anyone can imagine to get to work and make everything happen. I get up at 5:45am everyday, do exercise, sort out breakfast for my son, get him dressed, off to breakfast club before school, then get into work for 8:30am in central London and never mention it but have to put up with non-parents moaning about having been delayed 10 minutes on the train - FFS, really, you haven't got a clue lol!

 

Interesting. I travel to London on a Monday night most weeks in my own time (usually fly down on a 2000 ish flight) after starting work from home at around 0700 that day, stopping around 1700 to drive the 60 miles to the airport. I get to my hotel around 2230 and am always in the office every day by 0715 ( I get up around 0515), often not leaving until 1930 as well, I'm just going back to an empty hotel room.  On a Thursday night I get the 2100 flight home, arriving home around 0030 to start work the next morning around 0700 from home and usually get to finish around 1800/1830 on a Friday night..

 

My colleagues, who mostly go to the office every day, getting in around 0830-0900 in the morning and leaving around 1730 every night to go home to their families do nothing but whinge about how they have to juggle childcare with the demands of a 45 minute commute each way every day etc. (my commute fro the hotel to the office is around 25 minutes walking each way).

 

My point is not to score points, more to say we all have choices. If people can't juggle then they need to make the choices to suit the lifestyle they want, rather than bitch and moan about how hard it is and everyone needs to bend to support them etc etc.

 

As I said, I'm probably just a twat, but 25 years ago when we had our first child we took a decision to move to a part of the world where housing was more affordable (and jobs were fewer) and we would be able to live OK as a family on one salary. Choices!  The down side was I had to accept I would need to travel for work but we've had a good life and the kids were happy and now do us proud.  Choices. I was fortunate I guess.

 

Having kids does not make you special. It does not nor should not confer any special privileges at work. Having kids is a privilege in itself. I'm not heartless - it's difficult for single parents of course as they have to be both bread winner and carer. A really tough crack.  

 

I would not say on the whole that parents work harder. Some do. Some don't. Same as everyone/anyone else. Some just use every excuse in the book to justify why they are special and need special treatment! Just like some of those who don't have kids. 

 

There are a few like me on here - those who have spent a long time working away to support their families, just quietly getting on with it and missing being with their families every day of the week.

Edited by C8RKH, 13 May 2020 - 08:25 PM.

[Wolfstone]

Very well put C8RKH! Having children is also a lifestyle choice. And it annoys me when (the minority of) those with children then use that lifestyle choice to try and extract favourable treatment.

[C8RKH]

Agreed @wolfstone. It seems that in today's society everyone now wants "special" treatment. 

[jonnyboy]

Potentially controversial Andy but I think its better for kids as well. It is unfortunate that for many they are totally reliant on childcare/ schools whilst not exactly living the high life in a large mansion and probably not in the south east either.

Coldel totally agree that the fact we are being relied on to be sensible is a joke. This weekend just wait for the thousands to descend on the seaside towns. We are going to go out but staying local within 15 minutes drive of home.

I have some decisions to make in the next few weeks. Do I allow people on site? Also a return to using trains which is a big part of what I do. 50 odd TFL workers have died almost half the NHS total!

[coldel]

There will always be people that want to have some sort of special treatment at work but its important to separate that out from being flexible to employees needs.

 

I had an employee that was always by about 10-15 mins because he said the trains were always delayed, so I suggested he leave 10-15 mins earlier and he said why should he its the trains that are making him late not because of the time he leaves home. Like many that levy criticism at parents for their lifestyle choice he didn't understand by living where he did and working where he did he had also made a lifestyle choice, getting the tube is a lifestyle choice, everything about it is a lifestyle choice. 

 

On the whole in my experience I find parents are just as productive as non-parents and generally don't make a fuss about it, the current situation is unprecedented and the government decisions have directly impacted the agreed way of working between employee and employer, my particular concern was the issues that may raise around workplace conflict for the employees not so lucky to have sensible and reasonable employers (they are out there).  

 

Imagine the government saying tomorrow that car commuting is now banned, a persons place of work and their mode of transport is a lifestyle choice. I would imagine there would be a few calls for clarity as well as a fair bit of bitching and moaning 

Edited by coldel, 14 May 2020 - 07:53 AM.

[phil.d]

Just my 2p worth on the london tube , I grew up in London and most of my friends live there , when I suggested that my mate who works 3 miles ( 50 min walk ) from his house walk instead of getting public transport It was like I said to kill a puppy , there a lot of people in cities all over the country who could easily walk to work and the same goes for kids going to school , but people are lazy and don't think they should have to sacrifice there own time when they can stay at home getting paid as it's not safe to be on public transport . I know this wouldn't apply to everyone but then nothing ever does . If we're not careful we are heading down a very dark road in relation to how we live/ work and play . I'm just thankful I'm old and don't do much anyway , if I was in my 20's I would be screwing over this situation.

[C8RKH]

Potentially controversial Andy but I think its better for kids as well. 

 

Not with me and I fully agree. We made the decision and the choice to forego my wife's salary (an IT programmer at the time so a great salary) so that WE would bring up our kids and not have to pay someone else to do it.  My "kids" are now 25 and 21 and a real credit - never given us any hassle, polite in public, both work hard etc.

 

But to make it work on 1 salary we needed to make decisions on holidays, cars, where we lived etc. It was tough for the first few years but we got through it. And we never once regretted the decision. I had shite moron cars, run of the mill family cars, for years as money was tight. We holidayed in the UK in the first few years, then started to get the cash to go abroad once a year, then twice etc. And we stayed in the same house. Still there. So I'm mortgage free, wife still does not work, but we have 3 foreign holidays a year, I've got an Evora and a VX220 for play, etc etc.  It turned out OK in the end, but it took time - and many people don;t want to wait, they want it all now, then whinge like fook about "how hard it all is".  Probably controversial, but you know me Jon!

 

At the time, it was the people I worked with, both partners working, who just belly ached and complained all the time - about having to juggle with work and kids, about having to pay for child minders, etc etc. But often they both worked because they wanted two foreign holidays each year, two new cars and they wanted to be "upwardly mobile" on the housing ladder, never satisfied, always wanting more.

 

@Codel, I agree it is all about a balance. But I can guarantee you that those people whinging now asking for flexibility and "balance" from their employers as they have kids, will be the ones who bitch and moan and whinge and complain when the employer comes back to them for them to give a bit more, because, well, "when am I going to see my kids then....."

 

Balance is great, but two many abuse it and see it as a way to get an easier life. Again, not everyone. Just some. Well, quite a lot actually lol....

[quimbles]

It's been like the tour de france on the roads near me for weeks. People meeting up on the bridleways etc. Nothings really changed since Wednesday.... Ok one day. No one's being paying attention to the rules anyway.

Not being a nimby, it's nice to see friends and family's enjoying the outdoors. Sadly I bet as soon as restrictions ease some more it's straight back down the retail parks.

[quimbles]

Oh and on topic.

I'm working from home with two small children. My wife doesn't work so it's not too bad. Total carnage if you both had to work.

I think employers will be understanding. Stressful for the employee if they feel forced back into work. But I think the law will be on their side, it only takes one publicised case.

[coldel]

Yeah, but I guess the last thing you want are legal cases springing up everywhere, or most people they just want to work I think and get money coming back in again. 

 

@C8RKH yep there will be a few people looking to take advantage but every bit of employee research I have seen where an employer is flexible you get a lot more for you buck from that individual in the long run, more loyalty, more effort (time working doesn't equal output) and more of a willingness to work with the companies values. I genuinely do not think that the p155 taking type is the norm - but also agree there is definitely a few of the stereotype out there a few people have in their minds that they are tarring most parents with i.e. the mouthy chavy overweight chain smoking single mum who has 15 kids and thinks the world owes them everything. Sounds like I am in the same boat as you, I earn enough to comfortably buy a GTR or whatever but currently pay for my household at the moment. I don't covet anything and am very happy with my lot, whereas there seems to be a growing trend of younger people wanting everything now - thank you social media!

 

 

[jonnyboy]

The employer loyalty thing really does work. I remember back in 08 a kind of similar or as near as we have to similar situation as we have now. People may forget but 08 was a bloody scary time everyone was on the hook for getting laid off you din't know if the cash machine would work it was equally as scary as the times we are in here but the Government supported only the banks at that time and not the public (That cost more as well up top now!) . Anyway the relevance to the thread is that the old boy that ran the company pulled us in and told us that none of us would be out of a job and that other than an overtime ban he would pull us all through using the companies reserves and if needed his own money. He earned a huge amount of respect for that and certainly in my case I punted off a couple of job offers in the following few years largely because I benchmarked any new opportunities on the likelihood of being looked after in that way anywhere else and out of loyalty of course. A good man and certainly of the oldschool. A new era director would have put his McLaren payments first I think. 

 

I guess employers at the moment will hopefully have some flexibility to un furlough people that don't have childcare issues first. That will no doubt kick off a load of people moaning about equality or whatever but in times like this people need to just stop being bickering morons and think about the company. The company is the thing that buts bread on the table so needs to be thought of first. We always do this in our house the business takes first priority over everything. You can make noises about other things being more important but everything flows out of a healthy business to benefit the employees. Plus it will quite handily pay for all this. 

 

Another thing to add in - Antibody tests. Approved today so I guess some kind of rollout will begin of those. Do you think you've had it? In our house we think Mrs S has but I don't think I have.